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Printing money
Ian Phillips
Posted: 20 September 2011 11:37:50(UTC)
#1

Joined: 26/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 12

If the BofE can print £200billion and pump it into the Bond market why didn't they just pay it off the country's debt?
Recently Redundant and Retired
Posted: 20 September 2011 12:09:06(UTC)
#2

Joined: 08/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 334

Maybe because the net national debt for the UK in July 2011 stood at £2300 billion (140% of GDP) if you include bank bail-outs or £940 billion (64% of GDP) excluding the bank bail-outs.
For really scary figures, look at total cash in circulation for any country against the value of their reserves, most major economies hold billions in gold but trillions in debt. A bit like having a £1million mortgage on a £1000 house.
Anonymous Post
Posted: 21 September 2011 08:14:33(UTC)
#3
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

A £1 million mortgage on a £1,000 house?

That would really make job mobility a bit hard, but then a country can't just 'up sticks' and move, can it?

Well, it can actually (sort of) by taking over other countries.

Debt and economic stagnation unfortunately can lead to war.
Truffle Hunter
Posted: 21 September 2011 19:06:17(UTC)
#4

Joined: 14/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 7

Ian
The printing of pieces of paper to pay off the country's debt would simply lead to hyperinflation. It has been tried before many times and it always ends up with a financial disaster. Have a read of "This Time it is Different" by Rheinhart & Rogoff. It should be compulsory reading for anyone wishing to stand for Parliament. Mistakes would hopefully not then be repeated by governments.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 22 September 2011 01:36:21(UTC)
#5

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

The purpose of Quantitative Easing was to stop the banks going bust and allow them to resume lending to business. Businesses borrow money to buy raw materials and machinery; and to build factories, shops and offices. Businesses provide the things and services we all need. They make profits to pay shareholders' dividends (our pension funds). to pay taxes and to invest in growth. Functioning businesses keep people in work supporting themselves and paying taxes. Not out of work on unemployment benefits.

Paying off the country's debt all at once is impossible. It is too big. But paying it off over decades to come through prosperous companies and employees all earning is possible. If company and personal incomes rise, you don't even need to raise tax rates because the same proportion of a bigger pie is a bigger slice.

Using that money to make a small dent in the national debt would leave the banks to go bust, the companies in need of loans and overdrafts to go bust, the employees thrown out of work to go bust. Who picks up the pieces? The government = the tax payer. If nobody has a business and nobody but the people in the dole office has a job who pays the taxes? No one. So the government has to borrow to get people back to work.

Much better not to bankrupt the banks and the businesses they support in the first place. Hence quantitative easing. A stitch in time saves nine.
Robert Court
Posted: 22 September 2011 07:34:27(UTC)
#6

Joined: 22/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 606

The belief is that all the banks are so inter-connected that if they were allowed to stand on their own feet they wouldn't have been able to, there would be a run on the banks as people lost confidence and the domino effect would cause caos leading to the end of the world as we know it- i.e. probably the conditions that would have led to a breakdown in society as we know it and maybe even war.

Instead the debt has now passed to governments who are all inter-connected and once one country goes bust the same thing could happen unless the banks bail out governments?

We shall never know for sure what would have happened if the global banking industry had not been artificially propped up.

I am sure that people would not have suddenly all been out of work and unable to produce food and create wealth.

Surely there would have been the risk of civil unrest on a large scale, but the outcome is unknown.

Once a system is nolonger viable and capable of sustaining itself - whether a collection of cells that make up human being, a bank or a country it cannot be kept alive indefinitely to keep it ticking over in a state of suspended animation. Nature doesn't work like that and we are part of nature whether we like it or not.

It's like somebody on life support but in a vegetative state - you can keep feeding the person intravenously and administer oxygen but if that person is totally brain dead and in a coma it is very unlikely that he/she shall suddenly jump out of bed to once more lead a productive life.

I'm scared that we are being kept alive artificially and that only a good old-fashioned world war shall clear the air for those left to make a fresh start.
Rose G
Posted: 22 September 2011 10:05:00(UTC)
#7

Joined: 26/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 112

We are in the business of keeping the bankers in bonuses, no matter what.

With the last lot of QE, banks have not started lending, they have used this money to make up their bad debts - the government/BOE did not place any conditions on this dying institution, so they have gone back to their old ways, eye watering bonuses have not disappeared, have they.

I believe this mess was created by the banks, well let them sort it out or go bust - what incentive is there for them to mend their ways - they are not forced to change their behaviour, just to carry on pretending that they are lending - which we know they are not doing.

Instead of throwing more money at the problem, let them all go bust - maybe then we can start again, with a system which is fairer, & more scrupulous, which I doubt will happen because people working in this sector certainly are immoral, & shameless!
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 22 September 2011 12:40:21(UTC)
#8

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Rose G

At the same time as governments lent money to the banks via quantitative easing - for them to lend on to small business - governments ordered the banks to build up their capital reserves and not take any risks. But lending to small business is always risky. This is called doublethink or cognitive dissonance.

So the banks compromised and lent to big business which has cash coming out of its ears. Siemens has lent billions of Euro to the European Central Bank. Siemens and all the other big companies all over the world are not rushing to invest because with governments everywhere cutting spending there are no profitable investments to be made. Would you invest in the UK where government plans to sack hundreds of thousands of people? Mass unemployment is a poor background for growth unless you are a pawn broker.

The cash with big business will leak out into the economy somehow. I expect a mix of big pay rises for the fat cats and value destroying over priced mergers and acquisitions. Followed by golden goodbyes as a reward for failure.
Rose G
Posted: 23 September 2011 09:45:04(UTC)
#9

Joined: 26/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 112

Jeremy, it is not excusable that the very organisations who created the problem are still self regulating with the tootless fairy that is the FSA & the BOE to keep them in new clothes!

If the BOE can provide money to the very organisations that have created the problem, how can these organisations learn any lesson in keeping their own houses in order. We have the situation of the tail wagging the dog, & the bitches at westminster mincing their way through this morass without a bloody clue.

How on earth can an economy grow when there is ruthless slashing of jobs? For those who are Tory ideologues, its great to experience the euphoria of slashing & seeing the blood flow, but our economy will take a long time to grow when more people are out of a job, when they will spend less - unfortunately the coalition cannot see this. We are governed by those who are so wet behind their ears as far as economic policies are concerned, they cannot see what is front of their eyes, for the ideology that they are rooted in. Cameron is the child of Thatcher - his families wealth probably grew from Thatcherite policies - he cannot see what it is costing individuals not born with a silver spoon in their mouths, has no idea what it feels like penny pinching so that they can keep their roof over their head, he has no imagination to get him to appreciate how his slash & burn & privatise everything that moves policy affects ordinary individuals.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 23 September 2011 12:37:02(UTC)
#10

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Rose G

On the subject of the Cameron's wealth:

http://www.dailymail.co....ers-So-truth-money.html

As the Mail is a Tory paper, I suspect that it has massaged the numbers down.

The situation with the banks is a bit like postwar Germany under Allied occupation. The Allies could not administer Germany because they did not speak the language, did not have the manpower and soldiers don't know how to do all the jobs done by government officials. So they made a cursory effort to remove the worst of the known Nazi war criminals (usually to work for Uncle Sam as spies or rocket scientists) and left the rest in place with a cursory de-Nazification and re-education programme. Amazingly, Germany is now a decent country able to hold its head up among the civilised nations

With the banks, governments are in the same position. They do not have the skilled manpower to do all the legitimate things banks do. So they can prosecute some of the high profile known criminals and have a few others sacked. But they have to leave most employees, even those at the top, in place. Because they are irreplaceable.

The biggest limiting factor is that almost all the banks have international operations. Many have more employees overseas than in the UK. Foreign governments are unlikely to agree to a British government making unilateral changes that drastically affect their economies.
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