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Increased taxation for the older generation?
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Easyrider
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:38:36(UTC)
#353

Joined: 09/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,951
Andrew1952;147223 wrote:
Vind;145565 wrote:
I think there was something in the report that covered DB pensions.


On a separate but related note, there has been talk of hardening the valuation calculation for DB pensions in relation to the Lifetime Allowance. Not sure it's progressed much, but there was talk of increasing the multiple of pension upwards from 20x.



The easiest way to deal with final salary pension values (and remember the NHS superannuation scheme with 1,350,000 members is totally unfunded, joe blogs, the taxpayer pays the lot) is to SCRAP employees NI and combine it with income tax at new increased rates.

This can be done without disadvantaging most people still in work but it will claw back some of the massive payments being made to the 77,000 retired public service employees who receive pensions of *more* than average earnings.

It won't affect the tax on most savings because interest rates are zilch and there is a £1000 tax free savings allowance.


Combining income tax and NICs would increase the rate of marginal taxation for all retired people who pay tax, not just public sector employees.
I'm not advocating it, or against it. I'm simply pointing out that all retirees would have to pay more income tax irrespective of whether they worked in the private or public sector, assuming their retirement income was above the income tax threshold.
IMO the 20x multiple is ludicrous.
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Andrew1952
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:44:06(UTC)
#361

Joined: 06/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 538
philip gosling;146873 wrote:

~Come on


Modern Monetary Theory clearly removes the necessity for huge tax rises. Gentle inflation will over 25 years remove the burden of the extra debt we have built up in past 12 months. 25% of all the $ in the world were printed last year by the Federal bank and Mr Biden has promised an initial $2000 to everyone - rich and poor alike . (Bit like Ms Sturgeon FM Scotland giving all NHS staff £500 bonus from UK Virus £8 billion grant including consultants, nurses & doctors but not not cleaners because cleaners by and large work for outside contractors).

As everyone including politicians know old folk vote in their millions and by and large young folk don't vote in such numbers and soon there will be more old than young folk - Mrs May learned a harsh lesson when ignoring "old Folk" in the 2017 election and lost her overall majority - Death Tax massive rise on probate and counting main residence for social care were her doom.

We should worry more about the equity bubble bursting in 2021 than introduction of a wealth tax.


It wont be gentle inflation, it will hit hard and fast and if the USA and UK are still trying to borrow billions on the open market then its game over as long term interest rates suddenly go back above trend.

Old folk not only vote but are the people the conservatives and brexiteers relied on. Every day PH England reports another 1,250 deaths, that's another 1,250 (almost certainly) votes lost to the Conservative party. No wonder Boris is crapping himself in his desperation to get the over 80's vaccinated. We know what his opinion is of business because he has been heard saying 'Feck business'. He stomps around pretending he is Churchill, and like Churchill at the 1945 GE he will be turfed out in Dec 2024.
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Easyrider
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:48:28(UTC)
#362

Joined: 09/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,951
Andrew1952;147226 wrote:
philip gosling;146873 wrote:

~Come on


Modern Monetary Theory clearly removes the necessity for huge tax rises. Gentle inflation will over 25 years remove the burden of the extra debt we have built up in past 12 months. 25% of all the $ in the world were printed last year by the Federal bank and Mr Biden has promised an initial $2000 to everyone - rich and poor alike . (Bit like Ms Sturgeon FM Scotland giving all NHS staff £500 bonus from UK Virus £8 billion grant including consultants, nurses & doctors but not not cleaners because cleaners by and large work for outside contractors).

As everyone including politicians know old folk vote in their millions and by and large young folk don't vote in such numbers and soon there will be more old than young folk - Mrs May learned a harsh lesson when ignoring "old Folk" in the 2017 election and lost her overall majority - Death Tax massive rise on probate and counting main residence for social care were her doom.

We should worry more about the equity bubble bursting in 2021 than introduction of a wealth tax.


It wont be gentle inflation, it will hit hard and fast and if the USA and UK are still trying to borrow billions on the open market then its game over as long term interest rates suddenly go back above trend.

Old folk not only vote but are the people the conservatives and brexiteers relied on. Every day PH England reports another 1,250 deaths, that's another 1,250 (almost certainly) votes lost to the Conservative party. No wonder Boris is crapping himself in his desperation to get the over 80's vaccinated. We know what his opinion is of business because he has been heard saying 'Feck business'. He stomps around pretending he is Churchill, and like Churchill at the 1945 GE he will be turfed out in Dec 2024.


I doubt very much that the priority list for the jab has been determined on the basis of prolonging the lives of Conservative voters.
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3 users thanked Easyrider for this post.
Jimmy Page on 18/01/2021(UTC), jeffian on 18/01/2021(UTC), SimonHughes on 19/01/2021(UTC)
Andrew1952
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:52:04(UTC)
#354

Joined: 06/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 538
Easyrider;147225 wrote:
Andrew1952;147223 wrote:
Vind;145565 wrote:
I think there was something in the report that covered DB pensions.


On a separate but related note, there has been talk of hardening the valuation calculation for DB pensions in relation to the Lifetime Allowance. Not sure it's progressed much, but there was talk of increasing the multiple of pension upwards from 20x.



The easiest way to deal with final salary pension values (and remember the NHS superannuation scheme with 1,350,000 members is totally unfunded, joe blogs, the taxpayer pays the lot) is to SCRAP employees NI and combine it with income tax at new increased rates.

This can be done without disadvantaging most people still in work but it will claw back some of the massive payments being made to the 77,000 retired public service employees who receive pensions of *more* than average earnings.

It won't affect the tax on most savings because interest rates are zilch and there is a £1000 tax free savings allowance.


Combining income tax and NICs would increase the rate of marginal taxation for all retired people who pay tax, not just public sector employees.
I'm not advocating it, or against it. I'm simply pointing out that all retirees would have to pay more income tax irrespective of whether they worked in the private or public sector, assuming their retirement income was above the income tax threshold.
IMO the 20x multiple is ludicrous.


And why shouldn't they (pay a bit more tax) ?. The tax free allowance is £10K and they spend nothing on commuting. Why should anyone receiving the state pension and still working (which many do) also be exempt from NI ?. Not just them, I believe their employer also does not have to pay employERS NI on their pay too (need to check on this). Why should anyone carry on getting unlimited 'all you can eat for free' NHS treatment for potentially 30+ years ?. There are now 560,000 people over 85, and 15,000 over 100 and last year there was a bulge of 99-yo's (do the maths) waiting to get a card from her maj.

NI is just Tax with a cuddly name.
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3 users thanked Andrew1952 for this post.
Easyrider on 18/01/2021(UTC), Keith Cobby on 18/01/2021(UTC), Laura Sommer on 23/01/2021(UTC)
Andrew1952
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:53:26(UTC)
#363

Joined: 06/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 538
Easyrider;147229 wrote:
Andrew1952;147226 wrote:
philip gosling;146873 wrote:

~Come on


Modern Monetary Theory clearly removes the necessity for huge tax rises. Gentle inflation will over 25 years remove the burden of the extra debt we have built up in past 12 months. 25% of all the $ in the world were printed last year by the Federal bank and Mr Biden has promised an initial $2000 to everyone - rich and poor alike . (Bit like Ms Sturgeon FM Scotland giving all NHS staff £500 bonus from UK Virus £8 billion grant including consultants, nurses & doctors but not not cleaners because cleaners by and large work for outside contractors).

As everyone including politicians know old folk vote in their millions and by and large young folk don't vote in such numbers and soon there will be more old than young folk - Mrs May learned a harsh lesson when ignoring "old Folk" in the 2017 election and lost her overall majority - Death Tax massive rise on probate and counting main residence for social care were her doom.

We should worry more about the equity bubble bursting in 2021 than introduction of a wealth tax.


It wont be gentle inflation, it will hit hard and fast and if the USA and UK are still trying to borrow billions on the open market then its game over as long term interest rates suddenly go back above trend.

Old folk not only vote but are the people the conservatives and brexiteers relied on. Every day PH England reports another 1,250 deaths, that's another 1,250 (almost certainly) votes lost to the Conservative party. No wonder Boris is crapping himself in his desperation to get the over 80's vaccinated. We know what his opinion is of business because he has been heard saying 'Feck business'. He stomps around pretending he is Churchill, and like Churchill at the 1945 GE he will be turfed out in Dec 2024.


I doubt very much that the priority list for the jab has been determined on the basis of prolonging the lives of Conservative voters.


In politics, it's ALL about VOTES and getting into/remaining in power. Its the only thing that keeps an MP awake at night.
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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 18 January 2021 19:57:32(UTC)
#383

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,125

Thanks: 11370 times
Was thanked: 18235 time(s) in 5981 post(s)
Richard T;147175 wrote:
There is a (Covid) bill to pay and the obvious solution is to increase income tax,


It is obvious but that doesn't mean the best.

There are a myriad of changes I would make first, for instance:

1) End higher rate tax relief on pension contributions.

2) Set pension contribution tax relief at, say, 15% across the board.

3) Limit ISA contributions to £10K and set a lifetime ISA limit of, say, £250,000

4) Find a way to Road Tax EV's more realistically ;)

5) Increase Airport Passenger Tax

6) Introduce a Tourism overnight tax in hotels, as many countries do.

7) Close a lot of cushy tax loopholes, the Tax manuals are full of them

All these are quite progressive, and have limited effects at the lower end, so most people should be content. It isn't retrospective.

And yes, these would affect me too... ;)
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5 users thanked ANDREW FOSTER for this post.
Tim D on 18/01/2021(UTC), Newbie on 18/01/2021(UTC), Tyrion Lannister on 18/01/2021(UTC), Richard T on 19/01/2021(UTC), Laura Sommer on 23/01/2021(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 18 January 2021 20:24:46(UTC)
#388

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883

Thanks: 33209 times
Was thanked: 24362 time(s) in 7229 post(s)
Richard T;147212 wrote:
Dennis .;147194 wrote:
In opinion polls most people are in favour of tax increases as long as they only affect people richer than themselves. The problem then is that the further up the income scale you go the fewer people are in that sector and most of us who have been high earners only achieve high earnings for part of our careers anyway. At the end of the day the tax burden has to fall on the ordinary folk.


And polls read across into elections. We do need grown up political parties that don't pretend they will give everyone what they want with no cost.


If there's a lack of "grown up political parties", I fear the fundamental cause is the lack of a grown up electorate (and, related, media).

We will get politicians who can get away with saying things like "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that actually" when we have an electorate (and journalists) who can cope with more nuance than dumb sound-bites touted as solutions to complex problems.

Or put another way: people get the politicians they deserve.
And so here we are.
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5 users thanked Tim D for this post.
Jimmy Page on 18/01/2021(UTC), bill xxxx on 18/01/2021(UTC), Julianw on 18/01/2021(UTC), Tyrion Lannister on 18/01/2021(UTC), Richard T on 19/01/2021(UTC)
Chris Male
Posted: 18 January 2021 20:54:30(UTC)
#394

Joined: 25/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 4

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 2 post(s)
I think one of the fairest ways would be to have an increase in income tax of 10% - ie 22p or 44p in the pound. It would not hit the poorest who do not pay income tax and it should raise a lot more than a wealth tax. I think a wealth tax would be counterproductive as the very rich would depart and it would be unfair to those (usually pensioners) that live in valuable houses but do not have much income.
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3 users thanked Chris Male for this post.
dd on 18/01/2021(UTC), Tyrion Lannister on 18/01/2021(UTC), Richard T on 19/01/2021(UTC)
Julianw
Posted: 18 January 2021 21:50:08(UTC)
#395

Joined: 28/07/2016(UTC)
Posts: 405

Thanks: 902 times
Was thanked: 694 time(s) in 286 post(s)
Chris Male;147250 wrote:
I think a wealth tax would be counterproductive as the very rich would depart and it would be unfair to those (usually pensioners) that live in valuable houses but do not have much income.


I do not agree the asset rich (valuable house) should not pay up. You could either downsize or take out a loan.

I do not believe the wealthy will leave if there are asked to pay their fair share. ie they see everybody else pay up as well. Furthurmore, the tax can be structured that as long as the wealthy have UK assets, they have to pay. Elan Musk left Ca, but still have to pay Ca state tax for another 3 years.
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2 users thanked Julianw for this post.
Tim D on 18/01/2021(UTC), Richard T on 19/01/2021(UTC)
Easyrider
Posted: 18 January 2021 22:01:00(UTC)
#396

Joined: 09/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,951
Julianw;147260 wrote:
Chris Male;147250 wrote:
I think a wealth tax would be counterproductive as the very rich would depart and it would be unfair to those (usually pensioners) that live in valuable houses but do not have much income.


I do not agree the asset rich (valuable house) should not pay up. You could either downsize or take out a loan.

I do not believe the wealthy will leave if there are asked to pay their fair share. ie they see everybody else pay up as well. Furthurmore, the tax can be structured that as long as the wealthy have UK assets, they have to pay. Elan Musk left Ca, but still have to pay Ca state tax for another 3 years.


Presumably the UK government could impose capital controls now that we have left the EU. I can recall the time when one was allowed to only take £50 out of the country.
I'm not advocating it, simply saying that it is possible.
I anticipate that the Government will take the opportunity to implement substantial change.
" Never let a good crisis go to waste."
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2 users thanked Easyrider for this post.
Tim D on 18/01/2021(UTC), Laura Sommer on 23/01/2021(UTC)
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