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Property Downturn?
Rookie Investor
Posted: 27 May 2021 10:12:24(UTC)
#25

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NoMoreKickingCans;171614 wrote:
Quote:
Keeping migrants out will, as you say, raise wages. And hence living standards. That's good right?

No it will just bring inflation. Higher wages from labour shortage = inflation = lower living standards.

Especially when there has been a sudden exodus and you then stop those people coming back. I’d have thought quite a few might want to come back now the £ is 8% higher against the euro, and the UK looks like it may be post pandemic.

Inflation currently looks like either (a) It is already a huge problem with huge pent up demand vs capacity cuts to below pandemic levels, or (b) ‘It is just a temporary blip’ - in which case we are in for large price drops within 6 months - which frankly seems unlikely.

If you take shipping costs, even if/when all the containers are back in the right place there will be a capacity shortfall, and you can’t build ships quickly.

Lockdown has hugely destabilised the economy. Materials and commodities prices hugely inflated - and I think once suppliers have the taste for hugely hiked prices I cannot see them lowering them again. The only pressure for prices falling again is a drop in demand plus competition.

Lockdown and money printing looks to be sending us back to boom & bust economics and all the damage that does.


Whilst a shortage of labour will likely bring about inflation through wages, whether or not it would lead to raising standards of living depends who you are. It will raise living standards for those who have suffered from lower wages and unemployment and are now suddenly in demand. It will worsen the living standards of those who have benefited from cheap labour - usually the business owners and upper middle class consuming their services.

But then hasn't mass immigration lead to higher house prices (then otherwise would be if there were less immigration) - which has meant higher prices being paid? That in itself is a lowering of living standards.

Difficult to see what the world would have looked like if there was less immigration and whether people would be worse of or not on the whole. Immigration helps boost GDP but there are clearly social consequences of this as well.
3 users thanked Rookie Investor for this post.
Keith Cobby on 27/05/2021(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 27/05/2021(UTC), Guest on 27/05/2021(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 27 May 2021 10:36:13(UTC)
#22

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NoMoreKickingCans;171614 wrote:
Quote:
Keeping migrants out will, as you say, raise wages. And hence living standards. That's good right?

No it will just bring inflation. Higher wages from labour shortage = inflation = lower living standards.



High wages have not caused inflation in places like Norway and Sweden.

Low migration leading to lower unemployment reduces the government benefit bill, reducing deficit and in turn taxation. That leads to lower unemployment as business thrives. It's a virtuous circle.

No country can prosper with 5-10% unemployment, it's a drag on the economy.

The exodus of mostly low wage workers last year has lead to the unexpectedly lower unemployment figures than predicted that we have now. Thus this month borrowing is less than was predicted. All this puts the UK in a way better position than was thought. And the root of that is people leaving. That may conflict with some core beliefs, the "migration benefits the economy" mantra, but the numbers are there to see.

My local had a couple of EU bar staff back in the start of 2020. Now it has reopened with two British staff, the two predecessors having returned home. Their wages will recycle into the UK economy, rather than be partially repatriated abroad as an invisible import.

All very politically volatile to point out - but hey this is the situation and the results will become visible over the next few years.


I may even change by stance on not investing in the UK....
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Rookie Investor on 27/05/2021(UTC), Guest on 27/05/2021(UTC)
Rookie Investor
Posted: 27 May 2021 11:12:56(UTC)
#23

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ANDREW FOSTER;171627 wrote:
NoMoreKickingCans;171614 wrote:
Quote:
Keeping migrants out will, as you say, raise wages. And hence living standards. That's good right?

No it will just bring inflation. Higher wages from labour shortage = inflation = lower living standards.



High wages have not caused inflation in places like Norway and Sweden.

Low migration leading to lower unemployment reduces the government benefit bill, reducing deficit and in turn taxation. That leads to lower unemployment as business thrives. It's a virtuous circle.

No country can prosper with 5-10% unemployment, it's a drag on the economy.

The exodus of mostly low wage workers last year has lead to the unexpectedly lower unemployment figures than predicted that we have now. Thus this month borrowing is less than was predicted. All this puts the UK in a way better position than was thought. And the root of that is people leaving. That may conflict with some core beliefs, the "migration benefits the economy" mantra, but the numbers are there to see.

My local had a couple of EU bar staff back in the start of 2020. Now it has reopened with two British staff, the two predecessors having returned home. Their wages will recycle into the UK economy, rather than be partially repatriated abroad as an invisible import.

All very politically volatile to point out - but hey this is the situation and the results will become visible over the next few years.


I may even change by stance on not investing in the UK....


That is a really good point about reducing the deficit. I think it was shown by various research papers that immigration actually is a net benefit on average in terms of taxes vs gov support.

I think this research is not carried out properly. They seem to severely underestimate the costs to ongoing schooling, healthcare, policing etc that needs to happen when you increase the population. Furthermore, there are potential costs in the future for benefits support whenever there is a downturn in the economy and even state pensions if immigrants remain here for life.

If you were to separate out the net contributors from the net takers, I think you will find it is only a small % of top earners who do the contributing. We need an adequate return on immigration investment, and I fail to see we are being compensated for this risk, certainly no study I have seen goes into enough detail (many are perhaps very biased).

It would also be interesting to see how much of the government debt has supported house market indirectly over the decades (although I appreciate this is next to impossible to calculate with any reasonable degree of accuracy) - because rents and prices would be supported whenever you underwrite the various costs of supporting immigration - be it housing, schooling, policing, healthcare etc.
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Guest on 27/05/2021(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 27 May 2021 11:40:15(UTC)
#24

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Rookie Investor;171631 wrote:


That is a really good point about reducing the deficit. I think it was shown by various research papers that immigration actually is a net benefit on average in terms of taxes vs gov support.

I think this research is not carried out properly.


Agree totally... I read two such papers in depth and they dealt only with migrants as a closed group.

Firstly they took no account of the displacement of indigenous workers caused by migration, one migrant with a job equates to one other person on benefits when you have a million more people than jobs.

Secondly it took no account of the repatriation of earnings back to the country of origin, and the loss of spending and taxation that that causes.

Finally they took no account of things like house price inflation caused by excessive demand.

They were reports that wanted a certain conclusion, and selected the situation to prove it.

If mass migration was truly a benefit, then countries like Germany would not be trying to spread out all their economic migrants over the whole EU, they would be keeping them there and "benefitting" their economy.


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Guest on 27/05/2021(UTC)
Tug Boat
Posted: 27 May 2021 11:49:46(UTC)
#26

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,022

“High wages have not caused inflation in places like Norway and Sweden. “

Lived in Sweden, and their wages are not high, and they are taxed higher.

I was commissioning a fuel injection system and the equivalent grade engineers were earning about half my salary. Sweden also has high immigration.

Now Germany is different, my equivalent there earned about 30-40% more than me.
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 27 May 2021 12:34:35(UTC)
#27

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Tug Boat;171639 wrote:


Now Germany is different, my equivalent there earned about 30-40% more than me.


Ok then..... It hasn't caused high inflation in places like Germany ;)
Tim D
Posted: 27 May 2021 14:26:50(UTC)
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MBA MBA;171592 wrote:
NoMoreKickingCans;171585 wrote:
It is 14 months since interest rates were cut because of the pandemic.
We need them to be raised very soon within the next 2-3 months certainly.
I would make a small increase on 21st June - just to signal and set the direction of travel - a stitch in time saves nine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51962982

Although people have saved some money in the pandemic - I really don’t see how a few thousand saved over a year funds a mad surge in house buying. It is the interest rates and the stamp duty (and the useless lockdown) that are driving this. They all need to be reversed.

If we have lost that many immigrant workers, will they come back ? Otherwise we have permanently lost GDP and labour costs may rise. Trouble is this government want to keep them out - but we seem to be desperately short of all the trades (as we would rather send John & Jane to do media studies at no-name universities).


Greater chance of bojo leaving Carrie and marrying Dominic Cummings than any rate rise this year (and probably next too).


Just noticed this in the news
Rates
(in the G's liveblog at 13:03 ) from some speech just given by an (outgoing, dovish) BoE policymaker.
Speech available at https://www.bankofenglan...f-economics-and-the-ipr ; seems to be being credited with today's uptick in Sterling.

The text accompanying that chart is:

Quote:
The Bank Rate paths Iam showing in Chart 17are consistent with the MPC’s guidance on monetary policy, but the guidance encompasses a wide range of other paths as well. I want to be very clear that these are my own personal views, and do not represent the view of the MPC.

My central scenario is that the economy evolves similarly to the MPC’s central projection in May, but with somewhat more slack than in the central projection. Relative to the MPC’s central projection, I worry that the transition out of furlough does involve a modest rise in the unemployment rate, while the economy’s supply potential is somewhat less adversely affected, so that there is still some excess supply around the turn of the year. In that scenario, the first rise in Bank Rate is likely to become appropriate only well into next year, with some modest further tightening thereafter.

On the upside, should the transition out of furlough happen more smoothly, with the unemployment rate at or a little below current levels by the end of the year, with associated signs of upward inflation and wage pressure beyond the temporary and base effects, then a somewhat earlier rise in Bank Rate would be appropriate. It would probably take until the first quarter of next year to have a clear view of the post-furlough unemployment and wage dynamics, so a rise in Bank Rate could be appropriate soon after, along a slightly steeper path than in my central case.

On the downside, the economy might not recover as quickly, perhaps as lingering concerns about “variants of concern” continue to weigh on demand, which in turn results in more adverse unemployment dynamics as fewer furloughed workers are hired back straight away, with weaker underlying wage pressure. In that case, it is still possible that monetary policy might be required to simulate the economy a little further to help eliminate slack and ensure inflation, after its temporary rise later this year, does not subsequently fall back below its 2% target persistently.


(Although he's leaving, it seems to be being interpreted as a hint of what other dovish MPC members are thinking.)
2 users thanked Tim D for this post.
Newbie on 27/05/2021(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 27/05/2021(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 27 May 2021 15:52:58(UTC)
#28

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On the immigration thing...

I note the Home Office has released figures showing 34,300 applications for BNO visas from Hong Kongers in the first couple of months after the scheme opened: https://www.theguardian....hong-kong-in-two-months

That rate, if sustained, would indeed give the 1 million over 5 years originally given as an upper estimate by the Home Office - https://www.theguardian....years-official-estimate . The scheme has no quota limits.

(I've also seen numbers like 2.9million eligible, with another 2.3million dependents.)

Plus ça change?
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NoMoreKickingCans on 28/05/2021(UTC)
MBA MBA
Posted: 31 May 2021 15:29:05(UTC)
#29

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Tim D;171676 wrote:
On the immigration thing...

I note the Home Office has released figures showing 34,300 applications for BNO visas from Hong Kongers in the first couple of months after the scheme opened: https://www.theguardian....hong-kong-in-two-months

That rate, if sustained, would indeed give the 1 million over 5 years originally given as an upper estimate by the Home Office - https://www.theguardian....years-official-estimate . The scheme has no quota limits.

(I've also seen numbers like 2.9million eligible, with another 2.3million dependents.)

Plus ça change?


Alas abs unfortunately - speaking as a 1st gen immigrant - everything is for sale in Britain: passports, land, school abs university places, IP, companies, everything.
3 users thanked MBA MBA for this post.
Tug Boat on 31/05/2021(UTC), Newbie on 31/05/2021(UTC), Captain Slugwash on 01/06/2021(UTC)
Fig Lee
Posted: 31 May 2021 17:27:55(UTC)
#31

Joined: 23/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 1,477

Well after an aborted purchase last year I am in the market to buy.

I wished for a moment to believe that there is a ghost of a chance of a downturn in property.

But there will not be one. Not a chance.

And because the prices now where I live are literally £150K up the house that I wished to buy, I am looking at skipping the SIPP and ISA this year and raiding the piggy bank for any cash.
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