Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

BTL or an Investment Trust?
stormdog
Posted: 07 January 2013 19:03:08(UTC)
#11

Joined: 04/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 56

DGL,

He is not an UK taxpayer, also it is his sole residence.

Gross income here is gross income.
Grabro
Posted: 07 January 2013 19:16:48(UTC)
#12

Joined: 22/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1

This is an interesting question. It prompted me to look up where the FTSE100 index was on 7 Jan 1985. The index was revamped in 1984 and for the anniversary of today's date 1985 was as far back as I could go. Then I looked at the Nationwide Housing index for the Outer South East for the same period. Both the FTSE100 and the Nationwide index have increased by roughly 6% compound over this time. This seems to me to be highly relevant to the debate.
Alan Jay
Posted: 07 January 2013 19:42:38(UTC)
#13

Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12

Surely the level of risk has to be looked at? Investing in a property equals all eggs in one basket whereas putting your money in an investment trust is spreading the risk over all the companies in which the IT invests.
Ines
Posted: 07 January 2013 19:43:56(UTC)
#14

Joined: 22/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 52

I think you under-estimate the costs of letting - I have two one bedroom BTL's and the maintenance charges are nearer £1000 pa. on each. Then you have to pay the agents to let and maintain, and as others have pointed out it is impossible to find an agent who isn't trying to make a turn on the charges for maintenance, so everything is expensive unless you are on the spot to intervene. Then you have to pay for the gas to be checked out and various other incidental insurances and charges. My flats are in the South East, close to trains and buses and with parking, the agent has always re-let immediately - but I am guided by their judgement on what to ask for rent and don't get greedy. I do not have mortgages on these flats and see a return of about 3% on capital after charges - with a mortgage I would be out of pocket in terms of income.

I bought a while ago and the capital gain is still good. Looking forward I would think the government will have to increase inflation to pay off debts and the value of your mortgage would be eroded over time - and if you are resident abroad you presumably wouldn't pay any capital gains tax.

I also invest in lots of investment trusts and I have to say they are a lot less trouble. If you look at TrustNet you can see which ones are at a discount, how their NAV has behaved over the last five years, what the net yield is etc. If you look at the websites of the ones that are interesting you can read the annual reports where they list all the companies they are invested in (or were invested in when the report went to press) and the managers' reports etc. You do need to take the trouble to do this as there are some investment trusts which are run basically by and for wealthy families and have rather idiosyncratic structures - Majedie for example.

Investment trusts also have the advantage of being cheap and easy to buy and sell and even if the stock market is down you can liquidate if you need or want to.
Simon Broaders
Posted: 07 January 2013 20:26:48(UTC)
#15

Joined: 07/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1

Where ever you live, I think you will be taxed on the flat in the UK, as it is 'income arising in the UK'. You don't say how globally mobile you are, but I believe some countries (like Denmark) have a property value tax which also includes the value of property outside that country.

Investment Trusts are more liquid if your situation changes suddenly.
Michael Edwards
Posted: 07 January 2013 20:41:05(UTC)
#16

Joined: 30/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 3

I doubt whether anyone who needs an answer to the question posed should seriously consider either investment.
J Thomas
Posted: 07 January 2013 22:05:22(UTC)
#17

Joined: 22/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 732

Personally I would invest in directly held blue chip high dividend paying shares, or an Investment Trust. The return on capital should at least equal and will probably exceed your net return on a BTL, without the worry, stress, and inconvienence.
An extreme example of what can go wrong renting property is in the City where I live, a few years ago a Mother murdered her three children in a rented townhouse, since then that property has lain empty, nobody will rent or buy it at any price, it is virtually worthless despite costing a buyer in excess of £250,000.
Terrible for all concerned, and a reminder that renting property is far from low risk.
jeffian
Posted: 07 January 2013 23:27:13(UTC)
#18

Joined: 09/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 954

Nobody has yet mentioned the effect of gearing, which is surely the reason property has been such a popular investment over the past decades. By saying the choice is between investing £25k in a unit trust or a BTL, you are not comparing like with like because your BTL investment is actually £100k. Therefore, if over a period both go up, say, 25%, you'll have made 25% gain on your unit trust but 100% on your equity investment in the BTL. The risk, of course, is that it's the same on the downside!
alan franklin
Posted: 08 January 2013 03:39:23(UTC)
#19

Joined: 30/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 23

Was thanked: 34 time(s) in 7 post(s)
Some excellent, informed posts on this thread.

We (my wife and I) have had several decades in property- renting and development-and running share portfolios here and overseas.

I think if you can afford just one property the advice to select a basket of high dividend yield shares is best. Spread the risk and buy quality companies on down days. Research thoroughly and look at dividend cover, P/e and cashflow etc. Only buy what you understand.

Property has been good to us but we always bought low and rented while they appreciated. That era is over. I doubt there will be property price rises any time soon.

When I hear stories of rental yields of eight, ten per cent etc I know that all costs are not being properly accounted for. Discounting capital appreciation, I would say the true yield is more like threee or four per cent. We have done this since the days when you had to bed and breakfast, and in two countries, so have stacks of experience.

Properties need constant maintenance to ensure quality tenants. Washine machines etc need service contracts. You need gas safety inspections, insurance, accountancy, etc etc. Lots of costs that people never count in.

I am on the board of a block of flats where we own two properties and this takes a lot of time, running about etc. The problems are quite frequent.

In Britain we get rates of 7.5 per cent from agents, but I oversee all maintenance as we have a team of maintenance men. Try and do it from afar and you will get ripped off. Agents are none too bothered what repais cost you. You have to be hands on and know your tenants.

We run properties in America without an agent, but only because we hand pick tenants who have a lot of responsibility. This year virtually all the rent from one house went on a new roof ($9,000), insurance ($1,600), local taxes about $2,500, new dishwasher, $350, maintenance, about $430, and so on. Not exactly instant riches!

Property works if you understand it, work at it, know the area, keep a close eye on things and have a very good agent. Putting everything into one property is unwise.
3 users thanked alan franklin for this post.
jebc on 13/01/2013(UTC), richjohn on 14/01/2013(UTC), a moss on 12/05/2013(UTC)
k r
Posted: 08 January 2013 08:50:15(UTC)
#20

Joined: 08/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1

Just a few comments;

1. 25 years is a very long time. My guess is you will need to review your decision several times over that period, it is unlikely to be a one-off exercise.

2. Real estate investment is quite different to investing in other financial instruments, because as the name suggests, you have a physical asset on your hands to deal with, and with this comes other issues, for example;
- Managing agents fees.
- Landlord obligations due to legislation.
- Your time managing the asset (there will be some required regardless of whether agents appointed or not).
- Tenant defaults - individual landlord experiences can vary significantly depending on location, tenant profile, length of tenancy agreement and so on.
- Entry and exit times can be lengthy and stressful, and costs are high.

My own view is that I would need a mindset where I am prepared to devote significantly more time, £ for £, on real estate investments and see it much more akin to a 'business' rather than pure investment. It is possible to invest in the real estate sector on a pure investment basis, without getting your hands dirty so to speak, by investing through property funds but you need to do very careful homework before investing because these can hide some nasty skeletons.

Good luck with your decisions.
3 PagesPrevious page123Next page
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets