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Flexible drawdown- avoiding the age 75 death tax
ebkent99
Posted: 06 March 2013 09:08:14(UTC)
#1

Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 9

I am in the fortunate position of having £550k in a flexible drawdown plan. I am female, age 62. I intended to draw just enough income to use up my basic rate tax band. This would be about £16k pa (+£5k Tax free ). The residual fund would be passed on tax free should I die before age 75.

As I was a higher rate tax payer when I was employed and also paid 50% tax in the last year with my redundancy payment it was a no brainer to put as much as possible in my pension to offset the tax.

It has occurred to me now that if I keep my income drawdown within the BR band, withdrawing at a rate of less than 4%, I will never use up my fund as it will probably grow at a similar rate, thus remaining level. After age 75 the whole fund is taxed on death at 55%. I am now considering that I should aim to take a lot more income out before I reach 75. This extra income would be taxed at 40%. I am thinking I could give this excess income to my family to avoid paying more IHT.

Any thoughts ?
Rosemary Pettit
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:20:39(UTC)
#2

Joined: 18/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 14

If you can afford to, why not help your family? One-offs might be best for them and avoid expectations of a regular yearly gift (although you can give £3000 every year free of tax).
Think also of ISAs every year (just time to get in for this year).
Ricardo
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:24:43(UTC)
#3

Joined: 20/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3

You need to marry someone who will outlive you. On your death this fortunate young merry widower could then inherit the lot at nil tax.
Mick Carnel
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:28:39(UTC)
#4

Joined: 14/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2

Thanks: 13 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I am in a similar position to you, having just retired with both a pension and a SIPP which I intend to take and exhaust if I can through flexible drawdown so as to save the eventual 55% tax on final payment to relatives.

First of all, to take flexible drawdown you have to have separate pensions totalling £20,000 in income each year. You have not mentioned that you have this and so if not, perhaps you should sacrifice some of your Pension to buy an annuity to do this, so as to give you the ability to do flexable drawdown.

Secondly you say you are going to take £5K tax free. It is my uinderstanding that you can only take the tax free element in one go but up to 25% of the capital sum. I would have thought it was far better to take that 25%, (£137,500) immediately and trickle feed it in to an ISA year by year so that your subsequent income is increasingly tax free and you have full control over that capital. Alternatively, you could live on the capital and pass regular sums to your relatives (IHT exemption - regular gifts out of income) so as to reduce your estate to IHT limits, as this seems to be an area you may be worried about.

Once you have taken the maximum capital sum and ensured you have other pensions of £20,000 then you could take as much as you can out of your SIPP each year, certainly to keep you within the 40% band and maybe even pay 40% so as to eventually avoid the 55% band.

Hope that helps
7 users thanked Mick Carnel for this post.
Eddie Harvey on 06/03/2013(UTC), Guest on 07/03/2013(UTC), Guest on 07/03/2013(UTC), Guest on 11/03/2013(UTC), ACM on 11/03/2013(UTC), Michael Ward on 19/03/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 24/04/2013(UTC)
Eddie Harvey
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:28:47(UTC)
#5

Joined: 03/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2

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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I wasn't aware of the age 75 implications for tax liability. I did not realise that there was no tax liability up to age 75 on the pension. Nevertheless I have been thinking about changing my money draw down into a flexible one when I reach 65 and get the rest of my pensions. I would still have to buy a small annuity to take my guaranteed pensions (final salary and state) to the required £20,000 to qualify for a flexible plan. This would require me to use up some of my cash savings. I would try to avoid paying the 40% level on the flexible draw down amount, but am still unsure if paying tax at 20% and using up some cash savings are worth it to save my wife or our sons having to forgo 55% of the capital on my death. Sorry I can't shed any light on your situation, although my comments may be of help.
1 user thanked Eddie Harvey for this post.
Guest on 10/03/2013(UTC)
martin roach
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:32:14(UTC)
#6

Joined: 08/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Use drawdown upto your 40% tax rate and so pay the 20% tax. Then consider VCT or EIS/SEIS investments with 5 year horizons above that level each year to get full tax relief on these and so over a period of years move the money out of the pension fund and into invests like ISA's or just taxable alternatives.
2 users thanked martin roach for this post.
Eddie Harvey on 06/03/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 24/04/2013(UTC)
Johnwg
Posted: 06 March 2013 17:46:40(UTC)
#7

Joined: 18/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I was in a similar situation to ebkent99 last year and I opted to buy an annuity to get to £20k income with state pension as it was clear that I would be sending far too much money into the 55% tax trap. I did the annuity ahead of the equalisation (a complete misnomer in my view) of male/female rates in December to save some reduction in income.
I agree with the strategy of passing money to family if you can afford to do so to minimise IHT. I also have a policy that pays out on the second death to assist our children with the tax situation. There are no pockets in shrouds! Good to pass as much as possible as early as possible!
2 users thanked Johnwg for this post.
Eddie Harvey on 06/03/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 07/03/2013(UTC)
W D Morris
Posted: 06 March 2013 19:03:33(UTC)
#8

Joined: 26/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4

Your first decision is whether you want to spend it yourself, or give it to someone else. Might seem obvious, but if you are going to spend it yourself then you have to draw down the maximum allowed, grit your teeth and just pay 40% tax (given the GAD limits, you will still find the fund will grow if invested well).
If you want to give it to someone else without paying 40% or 55% on it, then you just have to marry someone or establish a dependant and they can take over the income stream after you. Given that you can form a civil partnership, or soon marry, with just about any other human with a pulse this is one final way of putting one over on the revenue. It's true what they say about death and taxes!
ebkent99
Posted: 06 March 2013 19:29:40(UTC)
#9

Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 9

Thanks for all your comments. I am already married to a lovely man. I have always maxed out my ISA allowances and intend to do so in the future. I have the £20k MIR required for flexible drawdown, thus I avoid any restrictions from GAD rates.
Can I reply to Mick Carnel's post " you are going to take £5K tax free. It is my uinderstanding that you can only take the tax free element in one go but up to 25% of the capital sum. I would have thought it was far better to take that 25%, (£137,500) immediately and trickle feed it in to an ISA year by year so "
I am with HL and they allow you to go into phased drawdown. The benefits of only drawing the amount you need as income to use up the BR band ( plus the associated 25% TFC ), means that the majority of the fund remains in the Sipp tax free wrapper and is also free from the 55% death tax if I were to die before 75. Also if I were to draw the full 25% TFC it would be in my estate chargeable to IHT and I would have already used up my ISA allowance. Everything seems quite logical until I am 75......
Carefull watcher
Posted: 06 March 2013 19:59:04(UTC)
#10

Joined: 21/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I looked at this problem in some detail recently. My calculations showed that the best way of maximising the net cash available to one's heirs was to leave the SIPP untouched until just before 75, then start drawdown (keeping that within the lower tax band). The reason for this is that the balance within the SIPP keeps growing in a tax free environment. You cannot replicate this by drawing funds off into ISAs because the limit is too low. I ran the calculations past my accountant and he agreed with the conclusions.

Incidently, I think you will find that the SIPP contents only passes tax free to heirs pre 75 as long as the fund has not been crystallised. Beyond 75, 55% applies whether crystallised or not.
4 users thanked Carefull watcher for this post.
Eddie Harvey on 06/03/2013(UTC), Guest on 07/03/2013(UTC), Guest on 07/03/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 24/04/2013(UTC)
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