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Flexible drawdown- avoiding the age 75 death tax
Fund of Funds
Posted: 10 March 2013 15:00:48(UTC)
#22

Joined: 11/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 26

Going back to the original question from Ebkent

She later informs us that she has a partner which is a critical part of the equation. You do not have to put all your SIPP into drawdown, use part and take the 25% and then take 25% of the remainder when or if you go into further drawdown. Also it depends on the tax position of your husband. Make sure idealy that he is also not exceeding the 20% rate. If he is then tansfer anything you can over to him where tax is being paid. You should then take enough from drawdown to keep you within the 20% rate. Remember that any investment where tax can be deducted will effectively increase your 20% tax band. For example you could take out 2 new SIPPs for yourself and husband up to £7200/year between you where you would actually pay £5600 , I think. VCT's are another good idea with 30% tax back on payments.
At 75 it is a bit different, the same applies above but it is the 55% problem. If your partner is alive he can carry on with your drawdown income or increase it. I suppose the best idea has to be to take the max and pay 40% tax if only you survive. It has to be better than 55% after you have gone. You could then give money away on the 7 year rule to avoid IT + the yearly tax free donation allowance. If you feel generous then if you die after 75 I think you can make charity payments free of the 55% tax if you have no dependents
ebkent99
Posted: 10 March 2013 17:07:03(UTC)
#23

Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 9

Thank you Fund of Funds. My husband has more leeway on his 20% limit and I always ensure any non ISA investments are put in his name.
I cannot increase my 20% limit by pension contributions, as one of the conditions of Flexible drawdown is that you cannot contribute any more. I could pay some in for my husband but as he is only a 20% taxpayer it does not seem to make sense as he would be pay tax at 20% when he draws the pension ( or a slightly lower % if you count the TFC) .
I am not too keen on VCT as they appear to have a high degree of Investment risk.

I agree it appears that the only way I can deplete my fund by 75 to avoid the 55% tax is to withdraw income at 40%.
I will only draw down what I need to use up the BR band thus preserving the tax free state of the remaining fund so that if I die before 75 and my husband has already died, this will pass to my son. When I am nearer 75 I may as well take the lot out as income and pay the 40% tax. I will look into passing on this spare income free of inheritance tax, a facility I did not realise existed until recently.

Having planned all this, what are the chances that the government of the day will not change all of these rules again before I am 75....
DCB
Posted: 11 March 2013 09:58:07(UTC)
#24

Joined: 11/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55

Useful discussion of an area which will involve me all too soon.
Taking 25% TFS and using Flexible Drawdown to adjust income up to 20% Income tax threshold seems to make sense.
Problem occurs at age 75.
No sure about the idea of Drawing Down remainder and paying 40% income tax on it all because if I then die before giving it away it gets hit with another 40% IHT ( Unless spouse still around)
Perhaps better to keep going at 20% tax and hope to live a bit longer?
Woodberry
Posted: 11 March 2013 11:31:46(UTC)
#25

Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 7

Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 4 post(s)
If you are planning to leave anything to charity it seems that if you arrange this to come from your SIPP (avoiding 55% tax) rather than from your estate (avoiding 40% tax) you are effectivley making a larger donation.
1 user thanked Woodberry for this post.
Roy England on 14/03/2013(UTC)
LouisV-W4
Posted: 11 March 2013 18:47:50(UTC)
#26

Joined: 07/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 41

Thanks: 12 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 7 post(s)
Having 'crystallised' my SIPP by taking my 25% TFP to increase the equity in my main home, a back-of-a-fag-packet calculation using just 4% pa means I will have more left in my SIPP pot in 11 years time than I do today, even allowing for taking the full 120% GAD drawdown as income each year. This shows just how ridiculous the Treasury's claims about us irresponsible SIPP pensioners 'exhausting' our pots really is.

I cannot see the Government increasing the GAD for SIPP holders because it's easy cash for them, and I won't be able to accumulate the £20K additional pension needed for flexible drawdown, so am resigned to the fact that my pot will be taxed at 55%.

If we keep stressing ourselves about how much will be left (for someone else!) when we die, we may not live long enough to enjoy any of it!

Take out as much as you can, mindful of your tax bracket to some extent, and enjoy the fruits of you working life. Don't worry about what will happen after you're gone.
2 users thanked LouisV-W4 for this post.
Bryan Cheetham on 12/03/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 24/04/2013(UTC)
Gwyndaf John
Posted: 12 March 2013 15:49:31(UTC)
#27

Joined: 22/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Bryan said "I want to use up my pension fund to help maintain my savings and property holdings but am being prevented from doing so" because of the limit on how much he can draw each year.
I believe that you can make capital loans out of your SIPP. That means you can access the funds for investment in income generating property or even to lend to family members.
Of course on death after age 75 any capital loans made would still be included in the amount on which tax is calculated.
1 user thanked Gwyndaf John for this post.
Bryan Cheetham on 12/03/2013(UTC)
Clifford Pope
Posted: 14 March 2013 11:36:52(UTC)
#11

Joined: 11/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 17

Carefull watcher;18553 wrote:


Incidently, I think you will find that the SIPP contents only passes tax free to heirs pre 75 as long as the fund has not been crystallised. Beyond 75, 55% applies whether crystallised or not.



But you don't have to crystalise the whole fund. You can crystalise a bit each year and draw down regular income in the form of chunks of tax free and taxable money.
That leaves all the rest of the fund uncrystalised until the next year, and so on.

I don't know how that strategy fits in with considerations of IHT and the ultimate post-75 55% tax, but it's another option to consider.
brian bennis
Posted: 24 April 2013 13:52:02(UTC)
#28

Joined: 23/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 9

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Gwyndaf John;18647 wrote:
Bryan said "I want to use up my pension fund to help maintain my savings and property holdings but am being prevented from doing so" because of the limit on how much he can draw each year.
I believe that you can make capital loans out of your SIPP. That means you can access the funds for investment in income generating property or even to lend to family members.
Of course on death after age 75 any capital loans made would still be included in the amount on which tax is calculated.


As you're interested in property, George Osborne's recent budget announcement might interest you, for if the rules are changed, you might be able to invest in income generating property within your SIPP. 'Have your say' here - http://www.sippclub.com/...ial-property-in-a-sipp/

(I'm declaring an interest in trying to canvas opinions from the widest audience)
1 user thanked brian bennis for this post.
planter02 on 24/04/2013(UTC)
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