Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Post Autumn 2022 Budget strategy: CGT, Dividends
Thrugelmir
Posted: 11 December 2022 15:54:55(UTC)
#10

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,333

MBA MBA;250399 wrote:
Imagine actually running a proper business and abiding by laws and regulation. .


People should stick to running nuclear reactors as far less complex.
MBA MBA
Posted: 13 December 2022 19:34:34(UTC)
#12

Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,725

Does anyone know of ETFs are simplier like ITs to track and report against when it comes to completing ones self assessment?
Tim D
Posted: 14 December 2022 01:05:22(UTC)
#13

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883

Thanks: 33209 times
Was thanked: 24362 time(s) in 7229 post(s)
MBA MBA;250674 wrote:
Does anyone know of ETFs are simplier like ITs to track and report against when it comes to completing ones self assessment?


Folks holding ETFs outside of tax-sheltered accounts should consider that:

- They'll need to be aware of Excess Reportable Income and look it up (the platforms won't tell you). See https://monevator.com/excess-reportable-income/

- As there are no UK domiciled ETFs and they're all "offshore", any income (even for accumulating units) may need to be reported in detail on the foreign pages.

(That's assuming you stick to ETFs with "reporting status". You don't want to go anywhere near ones without it, but I doubt most platforms would let you buy them these days).

I stick to funds and ITs outside of the tax sheltered accounts, personally. Use ISA & SIPP accounts to hold ETFs.
1 user thanked Tim D for this post.
MBA MBA on 14/12/2022(UTC)
MBA MBA
Posted: 14 December 2022 07:39:51(UTC)
#14

Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,725

Tim D;250699 wrote:
MBA MBA;250674 wrote:
Does anyone know of ETFs are simplier like ITs to track and report against when it comes to completing ones self assessment?


Folks holding ETFs outside of tax-sheltered accounts should consider that:

- They'll need to be aware of Excess Reportable Income and look it up (the platforms won't tell you). See https://monevator.com/excess-reportable-income/

- As there are no UK domiciled ETFs and they're all "offshore", any income (even for accumulating units) may need to be reported in detail on the foreign pages.

(That's assuming you stick to ETFs with "reporting status". You don't want to go anywhere near ones without it, but I doubt most platforms would let you buy them these days).

I stick to funds and ITs outside of the tax sheltered accounts, personally. Use ISA & SIPP accounts to hold ETFs.


TimD
What a headache. In the past you’ve also suggested unit trusts / OEICs are tricky. Therefore are ITs the simplest ie a listed share in a company that pays a dividend or better doesn’t pay eg most PE ITs and I guess things like gold unit trusts / ETFs? I know that the tail wagging the dog.

All I want to do is save save save so I can be financial independent at 57 and generate a natural yield of £20k pa in today’s prices.

Political alert warning....
Why do we live in a country (like many countries) if you want to undertake extreme saving it’s made as difficult as possible. If you want to spend on deprecating assets (cars, gadgets) or just consumption (holiday) everything is set up for you. Imagine if consumption was as tricky - you had to work out your own VAT and fill in special forms and if John got it wrong you’d be audited by HMRC. I guess the poor have a similar issue: save and you’ll be excluded from means tested welfare provision.
1 user thanked MBA MBA for this post.
Tim D on 14/12/2022(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 14 December 2022 09:33:40(UTC)
#16

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,333

MBA MBA;250707 wrote:

Why do we live in a country (like many countries) if you want to undertake extreme saving it’s made as difficult as possible.


No more difficult than spending the time researching investments. Stick to what you are best at in terms of utilising your own time. Use "professionals" as and when required. Once you fully comprehend something becomes a darn sight easier.
1 user thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
Tim D on 14/12/2022(UTC)
MBA MBA
Posted: 14 December 2022 09:44:16(UTC)
#17

Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,725

I’m thinking of hiring an accountant to do my self assessment for my non ISA/SIPP investments
Alternatively I’m thinking we can go on two luxury holidays (summer and winter) a year and deplete savings
Tim D
Posted: 14 December 2022 10:42:56(UTC)
#15

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883

Thanks: 33209 times
Was thanked: 24362 time(s) in 7229 post(s)
MBA MBA;250707 wrote:

TimD
What a headache. In the past you’ve also suggested unit trusts / OEICs are tricky. Therefore are ITs the simplest ie a listed share in a company that pays a dividend or better doesn’t pay eg most PE ITs and I guess things like gold unit trusts / ETFs? I know that the tail wagging the dog..


Some misunderstanding... I think UTs/OEICs (UK domiciled ones) are fine outside a tax sheltered account (and have several of 'em). You can make bookkeeping simpler by avoiding Acc units, and you need to understand what "equalisation" payments are, but that's all really so far as fund-specific tax-related quirks go.

MBA MBA;250707 wrote:
All I want to do is save save save so I can be financial independent at 57 and generate a natural yield of £20k pa in today’s prices.

Political alert warning....
Why do we live in a country (like many countries) if you want to undertake extreme saving it’s made as difficult as possible. If you want to spend on deprecating assets (cars, gadgets) or just consumption (holiday) everything is set up for you. Imagine if consumption was as tricky - you had to work out your own VAT and fill in special forms and if John got it wrong you’d be audited by HMRC. I guess the poor have a similar issue: save and you’ll be excluded from means tested welfare provision.


To be fair, if you can limit yourself on the number of ETFs held then looking up the ERI (KPMG have a site which aggregates it https://www.kpmgreportingfunds.co.uk/ ) and reporting foreign income in the SA shouldn't be too onerous. I'd definitely want to avoid getting into a lots of little holdings situation though.

For us on flat-fee II, I can't see any real reason to prefer an ETF global tracker over a OEIC global tracker (indeed the dealing fee on funds is lower than on ETFs... and IMHO I'd sooner have UK domiciled assets than ones in a foreign jurisdiction). But I could understand how it's quite different for folks on HL or other "funds tax" platforms.
2 users thanked Tim D for this post.
OmegaMale on 14/12/2022(UTC), MBA MBA on 14/12/2022(UTC)
MBA MBA
Posted: 14 December 2022 12:35:40(UTC)
#18

Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,725

I still can’t get my head around why I can’t just rely on the statement from II and just fill those numbers into my self assessment. I do understand it’s not easy to understand which income is Uk and which foreign etc. Anyway, thanks
Tim D
Posted: 14 December 2022 14:12:19(UTC)
#19

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883

Thanks: 33209 times
Was thanked: 24362 time(s) in 7229 post(s)
MBA MBA;250735 wrote:
I still can’t get my head around why I can’t just rely on the statement from II and just fill those numbers into my self assessment. I do understand it’s not easy to understand which income is Uk and which foreign etc. Anyway, thanks


My relative using a big-name "wealth manager" company does have an ERI section included in their annual tax report (it has a gains section too). They're paying a pretty penny (in terms of %-of-AUM) for that sort of service though; the basic (ERI-less) income statement is the only one the platforms have a statutory duty to provide, I think.

(Hmmm... I do vaguely remember someone here once mentioned AJ Bell might send out ERI info?)

Thing about dabbling in anything offshore (and Ireland/Netherlands/Luxembourg domiciled ETFs are offshore) is that their tax rules are different. I get the impression that until some years ago, HMRC was fairly relaxed about it... if punters didn't correctly account for ERI they'd just end up paying CGT on the gains rather than income tax on the ERI (and the amounts involved always seem to be quite small)... but the more you learn about UK taxation you realize that "thou shalt not sneakily convert income to capital gains" is one of its strongest underlying principles; possibly some folks were exploiting it as a loophole and HMRC came down quite strongly on this (with snotty letters to unsheltered ETF holders telling them to get things in order, including backdating for some previous years; this even took pro advisers by surprise I think. Some coverage at https://www.edisonwm.com...hts/offshore-funds-eri/ ).

It was certainly on the "Office for Tax Simplification"'s (OTS) radar as something that could do with being addressed. e.g in
https://assets.publishin...d_party_data_report.pdf
there's both a useful statement of how ERI arises:
Quote:
Excess reportable income (ERI) is a UK tax concept, relating to UK residents
with investments in offshore funds (a widely defined term embracing various
forms of collective investment vehicles). Excess reportable income is not a
distribution from the fund: it is an attribution of undistributed income. The
income is taxable only because specific tax rules attribute the income to UK
resident investors so that income cannot be rolled up untaxed and later
converted to a capital gain.

and some stuff on what a PITA it is:
Quote:
Investors in offshore funds are typically sophisticated investors, but they can
also be retail investors. Such investments might be held as part of a
managed portfolio or through an investment platform. The respondents to
the OTS call for evidence from within the banking and investment
management sectors consistently mentioned excess reportable income as a
complex feature of their tax reporting to clients and a possible barrier to
comprehensive reporting.
...
Offshore funds do not come under the legal jurisdiction of the UK, so they
cannot be compelled to report any information to HMRC or to present their
accounting information in a way that is compatible with the UK tax rules.
However, offshore funds with substantial numbers of UK resident investors
will typically apply to HMRC for ‘reporting fund’ status because investment
returns from reporting funds are taxed more favourably compared to returns
from non-reporting funds. Reporting funds must calculate their income in a
prescribed way and submit annual information to HMRC and must also
make information available to investors detailing their income per share or
unit held.
...
Currently, taxpayers must report excess reportable income to HMRC in their
Self Assessment tax returns. They may receive this information in a tax pack
from their investment manager or may have to employ an agent to calculate
it, or must otherwise find the information themselves (which may be
communicated directly to them, or published).

Many respondents to the OTS call for evidence – both investment managers
and tax agents – specifically mentioned certain issues they already face with
reporting excess reportable income:
• excess reportable income is easier to miss because there is no cash receipt
or other visible transaction
• reporting relies on information being provided by a foreign fund, which
could have a different year end and may take several months to issue their
own accounts, leading to delays
• the calculation of excess reportable income can be complex and mistakes
are common

However with the OTS being abolished (by Kwarteng, but AFAIK nothing has happened to reverse it), who knows whether there'll be any improvement in the situation. Seems that everyone agrees it's something that should be fixed... but then just nothing happens.
1 user thanked Tim D for this post.
Dexi on 15/12/2022(UTC)
Dexi
Posted: 15 December 2022 03:03:09(UTC)
#20

Joined: 03/04/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,752

Very interesting , thanks . Does the ERI need to be recorded separately on the form , or just added in to the total figure for income ?
3 PagesPrevious page123Next page
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets