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RIT capital partners
Newbie
Posted: 09 January 2023 12:44:20(UTC)

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
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Jesse M;253142 wrote:
RCP sell order has been stuck on ii since 8am this morning

Did you put in a limit order ? If so @ what target price ?

I have on occasions seen on AJB that limit orders

a) do not get fulfilled despite the strike price being achieved
b) sometimes get aggregated at end of day.

Hence even if I have limit orders I also place some manual ones just to check and if they go through then I cancel the limit orders and carry them out manually.

Best of luck
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Jesse M on 09/01/2023(UTC)
mdss68
Posted: 09 January 2023 12:53:21(UTC)

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Jesse M;253142 wrote:
RCP sell order has been stuck on ii since 8am this morning


In addition to Newbie's comments, I just tried a dummy sale, 2065p.

If that does you, you could try setting a *Fill or Kill* order, they have to try them into the market at your price, if it's filled, you're good.


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Jesse M on 09/01/2023(UTC)
Mr GL
Posted: 09 January 2023 12:54:13(UTC)

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Jesse M;253142 wrote:
RCP sell order has been stuck on ii since 8am this morning


when I was trying to execute my PIN into HGT switch earlier my broker told me there have been some feed issues with the LSE and it took a while to execute... maybe worth refreshing your order? RIT looks like it is small up on the day currently...
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Jesse M on 09/01/2023(UTC)
Jesse M
Posted: 09 January 2023 13:19:25(UTC)

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Thanks for the replies, I can see its gone through now. There was third party issues around pricing but thankfully all sorted and up another 0.4% from Friday
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mdss68 on 09/01/2023(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 09 January 2023 13:21:10(UTC)

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Mr GL;253149 wrote:
Jesse M;253142 wrote:
RCP sell order has been stuck on ii since 8am this morning


when I was trying to execute my PIN into HGT switch earlier my broker told me there have been some feed issues with the LSE and it took a while to execute... maybe worth refreshing your order? RIT looks like it is small up on the day currently...


Struggled to get quotes to sell a highly liquid Gilt ETF this morning at around 8.15. Eventually did manage to trade after numerous attempts over a 20 minute period. Kept getting unable to quote a price message,
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Chris Ould
Posted: 09 January 2023 14:52:13(UTC)

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John Stepek (ex-Moneyweek) on Bloomberg:

RCP and the Bull Case for Private Assets
Now on to another asset class which is still adjusting to the impact of higher interest rates — private companies.

Last week, I wrote a piece about the RIT Capital Partners investment trust — best known for being a vehicle for the wealth of part of the Rothschild family — seeing its share price fall hard. That was largely off the back of a write-up in the Telegraph of an analyst note from Investec, which argued that the trust’s exposure to private companies had made it a riskier proposition than it once had been.


I’ve since received a note from broker Peel Hunt, countering that the drop in RCP means it looks cheap and makes it something of a contrarian “buy.” I’m not going to express a strong view on RCP specifically. But I’d like to use this story to unpack some of the issues that investors have to grapple with when considering asset valuations in our brave new “post-secular stagnation” world.

There are two key issues here. One is that interest rates have gone up and (in my view, but I’m far from alone — it’s disconcerting to be on the same side of an argument as Larry Summers, but there we have it) are likely to stay up. That means assets that were boosted by the long fall in interest rates now need to reprice accordingly.

This is all about discounted cashflows and net present value. But the simplest way to explain how this works is as follows: if you can get 0% interest from a bank account, you’ll invest in almost any riskier asset that offers a positive return. But if your bank account suddenly offers 5%, the same riskier asset will have to offer you a lot more. All else being equal, that means the riskier asset needs to get cheaper.

We’ve already seen this happen in various public markets since 2021. The question hanging over private markets – which are valued based on accountants’ opinions, rather than the actual activity of buyers and sellers – is whether or not they have repriced sufficiently.

The broad suspicion is that they have not, because most haven’t fallen by anywhere near as much as their public market counterparts, and because there are many, many incentive structures acting against doing so (the people who invested in these assets don’t want to admit they’ve lost money, and the institutional fund managers who invested in the people who invested in these assets don’t want to tell clients that they lost money).

Non-Viable at Non-Zero

The second issue is probably more important. This is the concern that certain business models were only viable in a zero interest-rate environment. So not only do these assets need to reprice — they need to reprice all the way to zero.

If that’s the case, then the lengthy holding periods, which are viewed as one of the benefits of investing in private companies, are irrelevant. Sitting on an asset until market conditions improve or it matures into a better valuation is one thing.

But if that asset is worthless outside of very specific bubble conditions (eg as many, if not all, crypto-related assets might turn out to be), then your “patient capital” is meaningless.

So if you do decide to buy into companies investing in private assets right now, you have to look at whether both of these points are in the price.

The first is basically independent of management. Most assets (outside of the ones that were despised during the growth bubble) need, or needed, to get cheaper. But the second is very much about management. Do the companies that these managers backed have a future beyond the zero-rate world?

You’d hope that experienced managers would be able to avoid those “doomed” companies, and on that front, I can see the argument for investing with those who have been through more than one private equity and venture capital cycle. This is essentially the point that Peel Hunt is making. “Private investments are not new to RCP,” the broker says.

Of the 41% of its portfolio invested in private assets (as of end-November 2022), 92% has been updated to valuations as of end-September 2022. As the Peel Hunt team points out, markets more generally have actually recovered somewhat in the fourth quarter, which suggests that even if valuations have further to fall, the downside may not be as dramatic as feared.

Throw in the fact that RCP now trades at a historically very wide discount to its stated NAV (it’s had a bit of a bounce since last week but it’s still sitting at more than 15%), and “there has rarely been a better time to pick up the shares,” says Peel Hunt.

As I say, I’m not taking a strong view here, but I see the sense in the argument. It’s also worth noting that, according to a recent note from another broker, Numis, RCP had the chance to invest in FTX (yes, that FTX) directly on a number of occasions, but “it never passed the managers’ diligence threshold” – which is reassuring, given the number of numpties who seem to have just waved it through the door.

The next NAV valuations are due later this month or early next, so it’s one I’ll be watching with interest.
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SSJ
Posted: 10 January 2023 12:42:28(UTC)

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Let me see if I've got this straight...we use the KID costs when we want to criticise a fund we don't own and don't want, and then we use the OCF when we talk about a fund we own and cherish?!

I don't think I've ever seen anyone quoting their own portfolio's KID costs alongside their portfolio's YTD performance. I can only assume that it is the portfolio's overall return that matters most.
Similarly with owning shares in large corporations - ignore all the money they "waste" on scrapped projects, duff products, stock write-offs, pointless jobs/processes, office politics, fancy offices, etc. - just look at the overall result. Yet when a fund manager sneaks in some extra costs all hell breaks loose :)

I don't own RCP (though I have watched it over the years) but I consider it amongst other "voodoo" funds (e.g. BHMG, Man GLG Alpha Select, RICA, two of which I own) where you concentrate on the overall outcome and don't worry about the underlying mechanics and costs because you know don't have an alternative way to achieve that result.
Maybe when RICA has a bad year, we'll be talking about its KID costs too :)
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Dexi
Posted: 10 January 2023 13:38:37(UTC)

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" A fund we own and * cherish * " ....classic mistake # 8 of investing - never become attached to any investment .
Good point about fees though . Those on PE funds ( HVPE etc) are well known for being high , but we still buy them .
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SSJ on 10/01/2023(UTC)
Strangways
Posted: 10 January 2023 14:27:20(UTC)

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The Times is a bit slow off the mark:

"These are, for some, wobbly times in the stock market. The Rothschild family lost £70 million on paper in the space of only a few hours the other day. Shares in the family’s RIT Capital Partners investment vehicle, a listed company in the FTSE 250 and a popular stock with retail investors, plunged by 10 per cent amid scepticism about the value of its underlying assets.

That won’t much faze wily old Jacob, Lord Rothschild, 86, the paterfamilias, now retired, an adventurous sort who co-founded St James’s Place Capital and once thought nothing of launching a huge hostile bid for BAT, the tobacco group. His family and its charitable trusts own 21 per cent of RIT.

But it does illustrate a wider issue facing many of Britain’s investment trusts and their investors, big and small. It also helps to explain why the overall sector is trading at an average discount to net asset value of 13 per cent — the widest since the global financial crisis of 2008, apart from a spike at the start of the pandemic.

In theory, it’s very odd that assets valued at a pound can be freely bought for 87p. Scaled up across the entire £265 billion investment trust sector, it means something like £34 billion of “free money” is going begging. No wonder some analysts are starting to put “buy” recommendations on many trusts.

First, though, back to RIT. Worries began in early December, when Investec issued a negative note warning of “a material increase in the risk profile” of the company, citing the way its holdings of private, illiquid assets had soared from 24 per cent of the portfolio to 45 per cent in two years. Investment in venture capital funds, the spiciest corner of the private equity world, had risen from 1 per cent of the portfolio to 19 per cent over seven years. Oh, and there was also 4 per cent of that pot earmarked for ventures in crypto/blockchain.

RIT, Investec said, was no longer the “classic safe harbour” it purported to be. Some of those concerns were echoed in a column in The Telegraph last week, which led to that share price dive. About 1.8 million shares changed hands on Thursday and Friday, five times the normal daily average. At one point, the shares were trading at a 19 per cent discount to the latest net asset value figure. The big guns were brought out in defence of RIT. Numis, the company’s broker, called the sell-off “unwarranted” and a “standout opportunity” to buy. Peel Hunt said the reaction was overdone, pointing out that four out of five of RIT’s biggest unlisted investments were already profitable and therefore less vulnerable to writedowns suffered by earlier-stage, blue-sky punts.

Even so, RIT is not seen as quite the same organisation as it was ten years ago, when it was billed as the classic pessimists’ investment vehicle, just as interested in preserving capital in the bad times as growing it in the good. Back then, it had plenty of ballast in the form of gold and lower-risk securities such as bonds, as well as greater exposure to listed companies, where valuations were based on freely traded shares and were indisputable.

While an independent investment committee has the final say on valuations, the fact remains that the unlisted holdings are initially valued by the trusts’ own fund managers. There’s no independent valuer. Likewise, its large holdings in venture capital funds inevitably partly reflect the sunny view of those who manage them.

This is not an issue confined to RIT. Dozens of conventional investment trusts have dramatically increased their holdings of unlisted stocks in recent years, arguing that this is where the most promising value lies. Scottish Mortgage, Britain’s biggest investment trust, has 29 per cent of assets in unlisted companies.

Many more investment trusts have been created to back illiquid assets, where there is no daily trading and pricing of the underlying assets to reassure investors. Property-based trusts are the classic case, but in recent years new trusts have been created to own anything from wind farms to song catalogues.

The discounts at which their shares trade relative to net assets can be as much as 50 per cent. Investors in effect are telling them: “We don’t believe you.” Yet auditors continue to sign off the accounts without blinking. The net assets line is simply a calculation based on a backward-looking formulaic system and not always what a reasonable person would describe as “true and fair”.

Two forces are driving this disparity. One is the remarkable lag between valuations in listed companies and valuations in private ones. Take unicorns, those privately owned growth companies said to be worth $1 billion or more. Valuations of American venture capital-backed unicorns that have listed already were down by 59 per cent in the first 11 months of 2022, according to Morningstar/Pitchbook index. The index of unlisted unicorns, by contrast, was up by 1 per cent over the same period. Go figure.

Alan Brierley, at Investec, believes there is going to be a valuation reset across the industry as private companies run short of cash and are forced to go back to investors for fresh capital, at much lower valuations. We saw that last year when Klarna sought fresh cash that valued it at only £6.7 billion, down from £45.6 billion 13 months earlier. Ultimately, there will be price discovery and it will be “painful”, according to Brierley.

The other factor is the dramatic rise in interest rates and government bond yields. Owners of many types of asset use a discount rate to calculate the real value today of income streams decades into the future. A tiny increase in the discount rate can have a huge negative impact on present-day valuations. Some trusts have been less keen to lift the discount rates they use in the face of this change.

Investment trusts are a good way of holding illiquid assets, far more sensible than open-ended funds, but it makes it even more important that their stated NAVs are kept up-to-date and truly reflect reality. The widening of discounts points to an industry in danger of straining investors’ credulity."

Patrick Hosking is Financial Editor of The Times
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Big boy
Posted: 10 January 2023 16:56:48(UTC)

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Strangeway......not sure much added by above article...are they a buy, sell or hold after reading. Strangely investors always turn negative in a bear market and bullish in a bull market. So does this mean we should be buying the discount as we know times will improve. Remember just a few years ago many were paying a premium for many of these stocks and of course many PIs piled into WPCT
(nowSUPP) at a premium of 15%.....perhaps a clear sign that markets were peaking just as investors were turning very bullish...
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