Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
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xxxxx;255139 wrote:Jonathan Friend;255014 wrote:xxxxx;254927 wrote:Jonathan Friend;254825 wrote:You are taking sides, I am looking at it from both sides.
You also, mysteriously, have very little if anything to say about the role of the US (NATO) in provoking the invasion.
Sorry, but if you think Putin is a lone, homicidal maniac doing as he pleases, you've really swallowed the kool aid. No matter what crap is selectively broadcast in the Western media, sentiment in Russia generally is to defend their borders and protect their people. I know numerous Eastern European people who are on Russia's side, never mind actual Russians. There are many westerners like me who are sceptical about the role of the West. You are painting the whole thing in a very black and white way, which bears little resemblance to reality.
Ukraine isn't the stable entity that you suggest, which can just be "restored". Hence why there was a successful coup only a few years ago. There are huge numbers of Russians settled there. It will probably end up being split, but the ideal in the beginning would've been neutrality and a prosperous link between east and west. Too many stupid and grubby people involved for that to happen though.
Speaking of which, has there been any further news about the Biden family's "business" dealings in Ukraine? ... didn't think so. Before the invasion there was a fundamental questioning of the purpose of NATO and whether it had a role. Putin did a good job at uniting NATO and reinvigorating the organisation. He increased any perceived threat against Russia. Putin also managed to extend hugely NATO’s borders with Finland joining. A new 850 mile border that did not exist before. NATO has also become more powerful with the addition of Sweden and Finland. As the so called strategic thinker Putin has not done a great job for his people. Little has been said about the abhorrent military tactics of the Russian military which any decent person would condemn totally. The targeting of residential buildings and hospitals, the destruction of energy infrastructure to freeze people, the rape of women and children, outright murder of civilians, the kidnapping of families etc. There is something about Russian tactics that come from another age. Just for these acts Russia should be condemned outright. Ukrainians now believe that Russians are in the process of genocide. The Russians are showing signs of such. Do we stand by and let that continue in Europe, just because we can look the other way? There are those who would say that if Ukraine just gave up none of this would have happened. But how far do you take this? Russia rolls up and a country gives up? What if Putin really wants the old Soviet Empire back. You would agree with this as well? And it does not excuse the sheer barbarity of Russia. Ukrainians did not ask for this. Russia attacked Ukraine. It is not the first time Russia has done this to them. The majority of Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia. They want Russia to leave them alone. You haven't provided any sources for your claims, although it is obvious enough that your information is all coming from the western (read: pro-US) media. "Ukrainians did not ask for this"... err, which ones? The Russian Ukrainians who were being needlessly oppressed by the the stupid government there might beg to differ. Every horrible thing you've described about Russian actions are features of most conflicts. Many aspects of the Western meddling in the middle east have been barbaric. There are conflicts going on in various parts of the world right now involving tragic outcomes. Read up on the Congo, or Yemen - the latter being perpetrated by our ally, Saudi Arabia, using weapons we sell to them. But you don't care about any of that. You care a lot about Ukraine, apparently. Because you've been told to care about it. Your mindless obedience is quite depressing, and multiplied by enough people in a population, accounts for so much of what is wrong and why these awful things happen in the first place. You've done precisely what your social betters expect of you. You watched the TV and read the papers, then repeated their narratives on this forum and elsewhere, without ever really thinking for yourself. Just to repeat - I am not taking sides here. I wonder if those who do would ever have the courage of their (or their master's) convictions and actually join in with the struggle they claim to believe in? What you have written Johnathan is rather insulting at least to me but then I guess you intended that. You are correct I do watch TV and have read the papers. You are also correct I do care about Ukraine. Part of the reason is that I have Russian speaking friends and acquaintances in Ukraine who are from Odesa, Mykolaiv, Kherson and Kharkiv. Granted a small number but a useful source of information on the current situation. I talk to some of them daily and others on a weekly basis. Most have relatives in Russia as that is where their families originate from. I have made my mind up on what I have read, what my friends have told me and the confused information from Russia. If that is mindless as you say then I will live with it. You can sit on the fence as you are doing. It is legitimate to do so and you can make a case for it. It is also what Russia wants you to do. It is possible to make a case for being manipulated by a foreign power. I do not accept your argument at all that because there are atrocities in other wars we should just accept that Russia can do likewise. It is a strange line of argument and again one that Russia will be pleased with. Again, you care about this particular conflict, and want this country involved in it, but not others. You have friends there. Ok, I do not, and nor do most people here. I happen to view the suffering of other human beings as deplorable regardless of where they are from, but there is often very little we can do about it, and every chance we make things worse. We are not being asked to go to the aid of those other people, and nobody is suggesting we should. In some cases our allies are committing the atrocities. We are being asked to pay particular attention to Ukraine because the US, whose empire we are a colony in, views Russia as its enemy numero uno. We are also being asked to focus on it because it distracts the general public from the awful problems our political establishment has created here. People are worrying about how to stay warm in their homes on the back of insane energy policies; the excess death rate is higher than during covid, and it is affecting younger people now not 85 year olds, as the health service collapses and untreated ailments become terminal. We have rising taxes and inflation following two years of economic self harm. Border control is a total joke and we are expected to pay for huge numbers of foreigners to sojourn in our hotels. "Look everyone! Boris is back in Kiev!" "RUSSIAAAAA!" It is like distracting a distressed baby with a teddy. But to be fair, it seems to work. What is going on between Russia and Ukraine is between them and the corrupt scum bags running Ukraine bear their share of the responsibility in what has happened. It could all have been different. They will have to learn to get along somehow. Ukraine will certainly not exist in the form it did before the invasion, Ukrainians and Russians have seen to that. Nothing we do will change it and we are not in a position to interfere with the numerous burdens we face. Feel free to go and involve yourself in their conflict if you wish, but don't drag others into things you happen to care about.
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