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Increased taxation for the older generation?
Jonathan Friend
Posted: 04 September 2023 12:50:14(UTC)

Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
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If I was going to play devil's advocate with Thailand, I'd draw attention to the fact that whilst they have everything on offer for a price... they have everything on offer for a price. A significant proportion of the population are prostitutes. There are seedy resorts that are essentially city sized brothels and I found there was something of a transactional, money orientated attitude. Whether this matters will depend on the person, and perhaps you can say similar about other countries in one way or another, but it isn't perfect that's for sure. Also, I don't think they allow foreigners to own property, or not as readily as they are able to here - that might be a good thing for them, and fine by me, but may have a bearing on one's retirement plans.

What people have said about the middle East. These fake, cheesy cities in the middle of the desert have never appealed to me. On the point about how they control the movement of immigrants and tie them to their employers, this may make us squeamish, but the principle isn't such a bad idea. How many times do we see people here waving banners about migrants being welcome, but when challenged, admit that they won't be providing any accommodation, money or taking responsibility for their professed preferences? Employers take a similar attitude, as though it makes no difference at all who comes into the country, providing it is notionally beneficial to their bottom line.

What the UAE are doing is saying to employers: "you are responsible for your choices". I'm not sure how many terrorist incidents have occurred in UAE in recent years compared to here, or if grooming gangs, epidemic levels of knife crime in their capital city, or drug trading is an issue in comparison to the West (to the extent that these are imported problems). But maybe they're on to something, even though it might seem heavy handed and probably isn't necessary with the likes of the Nepalese. Our permissive culture has significant costs as well as benefits. Just a thought...
4 users thanked Jonathan Friend for this post.
Jay P on 04/09/2023(UTC), DIY Investing on 04/09/2023(UTC), Newbie on 04/09/2023(UTC), stephen_s on 20/09/2023(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 04 September 2023 13:39:13(UTC)

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Generally throughout the middle east employers and middle men are responsible for immigrants as per above. I too believe that this is a good idea and can go someway to stopping the overpopulation of unemployed and freeloading immigrants.

We are all too busy talking about boat crossing and illegal immigrants and completely avoiding another impending issue waiting in the winds to blow up. This is of a larger scale than the boats.

In recent years there has been an implosion of people coming across legally on funny visa's such as care etc. They are legal, however, what is not is the fact that these visa's have been granted on the basis of of a company or agency (supposed employer) which is actually owned/controlled by the same person promoting and being paid £15k-£25k a pop to get the buyers into the UK. Some of them are genuine people seeking opportunities (having sold off assets they own from arriving countries) who upon arriving on the shores find that there is no employment or company or that the agency/employer closes a day before/after after they arrive. The middle man/.woman/company has made its monies and cares very little and no one comes after them and even if they do they close shop and start again, rinse and repeat. On top the large transactions have been in cash and often away from the UK so the taxman does not get any of it either.

Now these people, genuine or not are in the UK with no jobs or chances or getting employment, but are here legally until their visa's run out and when that happens just watch the immigration figures and benefits numbers look llike. One also has to remember that these people with no income have no means of going back or have nothing to go back to and will be left with nothing to do but run or operate in the black economy.

If however the middle people or companies were held responsible, we may see a different outcome. On top the government could ask for a deposit to be put down for repatriation to pay for the ticket back (and still fine, imprison, enforce penalties on said middle person until an illegal immigrant is repatriated) then we may get a better outcome and in turn should attract genuine people with qualifications and skills the country needs. But I am sure that there is group who will say that it is coercive, immoral, illegal and find some law to say it should not be allowed - human rights is a good one (not saying human rights should be abolished at all before anyone pulls the trigger)

But then again the government would likely dip into that pot to fund themselves and also lose the political football to rally the lay.

Just waiting for the bang ! Could come just before election or stored for some other political use.
3 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Jay P on 04/09/2023(UTC), Jonathan Friend on 08/09/2023(UTC), stephen_s on 20/09/2023(UTC)
Dexi
Posted: 08 September 2023 14:03:40(UTC)

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Thailand has a lot going for it - good weather ( in the dry season ) no tax for retirees / long stayers , lots of interesting places to visit , cheap cost of living , esp. hotels , eating out etc.

On the down side , no NHS and health insurance can be pricey , not allowed to work or own land ( a flat is ok though ) , pollution from crop burning can turn the air hazy and cause breathing problems , existance always feels temporary and vulnerable to rule changes and un-cooperative petty minded beaurocrats .Did i mention the heat ? - 45 ` C and high humidity makes air con a life saver .

5 months and I`m usually glad to be back in Dear Old Blighty .
7 users thanked Dexi for this post.
Guest on 08/09/2023(UTC), Taltunes on 08/09/2023(UTC), Tim D on 08/09/2023(UTC), Jonathan Friend on 08/09/2023(UTC), Jay P on 08/09/2023(UTC), Thrugelmir on 09/09/2023(UTC), stephen_s on 20/09/2023(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 20 September 2023 10:04:45(UTC)

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Nice couple of articles looking at "tax burden" data across the OECD countries and how the UK compares:

This one looks at tax as %ofGDP https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/09/19/oecd2021/

And this one at tax paid by the "average worker" as % of gross wages https://www.taxpolicy.or...k/2023/09/20/wedge2022/

2 users thanked Tim D for this post.
Dexi on 20/09/2023(UTC), Taltunes on 20/09/2023(UTC)
eain
Posted: 20 September 2023 10:09:37(UTC)

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Be good to match the happiness index with these countries!
3 users thanked eain for this post.
Taltunes on 20/09/2023(UTC), Laura Sommer on 21/09/2023(UTC), Keith Clunk on 27/11/2023(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 20 September 2023 10:26:13(UTC)

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Tim D;279801 wrote:
Nice couple of articles looking at "tax burden" data across the OECD countries and how the UK compares:

This one looks at tax as %ofGDP https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/09/19/oecd2021/

And this one at tax paid by the "average worker" as % of gross wages https://www.taxpolicy.or...k/2023/09/20/wedge2022/


Does this incorporate data which includes factors such as those who do not pay tax. I mean if you take 10 millionaires and they pay £100k each but you have 90 non tax payers, then the average goes down does it not.
Also certain countries do not have many millionaires and is a fairer society but everyone pays tax, so their average is more realistic.

Are we in the UK in a dystopian society where HMRC only has eyes on the people who actually report and pay tax and thus the HMRC goes after them but is only trying to get others to join this party with mere threats by tv adverts and drop in the mat hopeful letters - whereas everything including the kitchen sink s thrown as Mrs Miggins the 85 year old who forgot to put her £150 interest from the post office savings account on her tax return and thus had not paid the £30 tax.

Then you. have the mega-corps (and the savvy legal and tax experts) who take full advantage of the complex legal company structures which a very small section of UK elites promote to the rest of the world in the guise of services and whos income is all in offshore hubs around the world. Thus out of the purview of the both the UK legal and tax systems. - In other words Britains second empire.
2 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Taltunes on 20/09/2023(UTC), Guest on 21/09/2023(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 20 September 2023 15:41:01(UTC)

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Newbie;279807 wrote:
Tim D;279801 wrote:
And this one at tax paid by the "average worker" as % of gross wages https://www.taxpolicy.or...k/2023/09/20/wedge2022/


Does this incorporate data which includes factors such as those who do not pay tax. I mean if you take 10 millionaires and they pay £100k each but you have 90 non tax payers, then the average goes down does it not.
Also certain countries do not have many millionaires and is a fairer society but everyone pays tax, so their average is more realistic.


Think it's pretty crude, just dividing tax taken from wages by total wages paid.

Ideally you'd be able to look at each county's income (and/or wealth) deciles and see how much variation in taxation there is at each level and how progressive taxation is and who's getting an easy ride. But I don't think the OECD data has anything like that level of detail (just the sort of stuff at https://data.oecd.org/ta...-on-personal-income.htm )

OECD does measure (disposable, after tax) income inequality though:
https://data.oecd.org/in...y/income-inequality.htm
UK is towards the upper end of the ranking there (more unequal). But that alone doesn't tell you whether there's more disparity in what people are actually earning before tax, or more that they're allowed to keep more of it.

There is apparently something called a "Kakwani index" (or "Kakwani coefficient") that can be used as a measure/comparator of how progressive a tax system is.. I can't find a straightforward table of it, but it's used as a "progressivity" measure on the vertical axis of Figure 5 Panel B in https://www.oecd.org/eco...ic-finance/49417295.pdf and seems to show the UK (GBR) as being rated a little more progressively taxed than the OECD average, but still pretty middle of the pack. Lowest on the scale are CHE (Switzerland), ISL (Iceland) and POL (Poland). Switzerland seems to have a slightly negative coefficient!
2 users thanked Tim D for this post.
Taltunes on 20/09/2023(UTC), Newbie on 23/01/2024(UTC)
You have to change your life
Posted: 23 January 2024 18:10:03(UTC)

Joined: 17/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 2,194

We need to think about ways of raising taxes through the older generation to fund spending plans, and in the event of Labour coming to power this year, bigly.

My thoughts are

1) No state pension until you retire (clear the deadwood, give youth its head).

2) Make everyone pay back to HMRC the pension uplift accrued through working life. The second option seems particularly fair, given that pensions have become (for many) the principle vehicle for passing on a legacy.
Tug Boat
Posted: 23 January 2024 18:29:24(UTC)

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
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We need to think about ways to reduce taxation for everyone.

Why tax people who earn less than 20k?

Why tax people at 45%

It’s bonkers, it takes money out of the economy.

How can the government spend my money better than I can. Oh, it’s obvious HS2.

Let’s sponsor people who don’t work as opposed to can’t work.

3 users thanked Tug Boat for this post.
Arnoldy on 23/01/2024(UTC), Keith Cobby on 23/01/2024(UTC), Jay P on 23/01/2024(UTC)
You have to change your life
Posted: 23 January 2024 18:35:55(UTC)

Joined: 17/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 2,194

I would say scrap Trident and save £200 billion. Reducing the tax-burden is a different argument.

But if we have to up the tax-take ..and we do.. and if the burden should fall on the generations particularly advantaged by the tax-regime..and it should..what is your alternative?
1 user thanked You have to change your life for this post.
Tim D on 23/01/2024(UTC)
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