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A new BTL proposition part 2
Neminem Laedit
Posted: 24 June 2024 21:47:17(UTC)
#12

Joined: 17/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,473

Newbie;309682 wrote:
A lot of contrasting approachs to BTL investing between the likes of NL and I.
I am all for capital growth, looking for multiple x walk away.
Little interest in yield - needs to cover mortgage (and costs) by 1.5 - 2 times.
Only interested in freehold houses - ideally 3 bed with gardens even better with garage /driveway
Buy in decent neighborhoods.
Buy properties which have potential to extent and make bigger - can be gifted to family / can sell garden
A strict no to benefit tenants - not after one incident back in 80's/ 90's.
Professionals in proper professional career - no self-owned directors (bad experience early 2000's)
Professional couple or couple with kids starting school is a good sign - older teenagers not so good.
Charge premium and deliver a good home (not necessarily the Claridges but also not Holiday Inn)
Always weary of tenants who want to pay full year upfront.
I look for long tenants - shorter void periods and less hassle
Single females a worry (as above)
Good neighbors important and need them on your side.
Take out insurance.
Treat it as a business and not a side hustle - if need get someone else to manage it.
Treat BTL as bank - ie when in need of cash, just refinance (within limits)
Average exit is 5x capital return + whatever income in between (after tax)
If possible do use family members names - preferably young and old - not earned income ones


But in the meantime, you are 100% exposed to the hypothetical "nightmare tenant".

I'm not. I'm fireproof. 20+ years and counting. Believe me, I've seen it ALL...

Cannabis farms [a helpful tenant destroyed it, without me being any the wiser, only telling me months later]
Abstraction of electricity [& abstracted electricity run from one flat to another via a wire !]
Drugs raids
A tenant taking a tenancy, purely to run the flat as a drugs den for his mates, courtesy of the benefits system.
"Cuckooing" and "Ghosting".
Good tenants leaving because of the above.
Flood because the tenant fled due to cold - she only had a gas fire as the sole source of heat*; her flat iced up (no heat, as she helpfully switched everything off), then thawed and burst onto the one below, destroying it.
More...

*I of course waited until I could install central heating under a grant, free of charge, courtesy of the tax-payer.
Steve U
Posted: 24 June 2024 21:58:46(UTC)
#9

Joined: 30/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 335

Neminem Laedit;309683 wrote:
Steve U;309681 wrote:
Neminem Laedit;309677 wrote:
jonathan rowe;309656 wrote:
Harry Turnbull;309470 wrote:
First of all thanks to those who provided some useful information.
I did a couple of viewings of my own in my old hometown of Hartlepool with tenants in place - one was the most squalid place described as a home that I have ever seen. The guy in there is old and helpless, an utter disgrace and the estate agents should be ashamed (they will be shortly!).
The second agents provided a video of another house and it looked smart. I pressed on a viewing and speaking to the tenant. A different story emerged! Roof + floor issues, major red flags.

I then visited some streets where properties have been acquired by the company I mentioned with their new hassle-free BTL model (Find UK Properties). I've not lived in Hartlepool for over 40 years but even I was shocked at the level of utter poverty. Why on earth would a business pick these s*hithole streets to acquire, refurbish and pass on to investors? At a 20% surcharge to market value in some cases, btw. Spaced out druggies, boarded up homes, refugees. My son was so shocked he advised we did not leave the car and he has done security operations for the Army. 20% over market value, no appreciation and 6% yields.


Friend of mine had some of these, the attaction is that housing benefit, pays ~600/month under LHA and that's a chunky yield

Very high chance of problem tenants, prolonged repossession court battle and having the place totally trashed

Not worth the hassle


I've done quite well for over 20 years, with now* exclusively HB tenants in one of the most deprived areas of the UK. 98.5% of the maximum total rent has been paid, including unavoidable voids. I've only had to evict one, 15 years ago, although a couple of others have come close. A couple of others are now under prophylactic notice, due to the imminent extinction of Section-21.

From experience
DOs
Re-insure yourself, by acquiring multiple cheap properties, ideally 1-bed flats.
Select tenants aged over 50, if possible. Men tend to be more stable, and as a male landlord, they are easier to deal with (although I've had some excellent female tenants). With females, beware the hidden male partner in the background who moves in and then tries to call the shots.
Live close to the properties. A 20 minute drive is a lot more doable than a 2/3 hr drive, and can extinguish more 'flames' before they take hold. If tenants know you live miles away and scarcely visit, the incentives to muck about increase.
Understand the benefits system. Local authorities tend to be much more efficient than Universal Credit, although eventually everyone will be on UC.
Understand how to get HB/UC to deduct any missed payments from the tenant's benefits.
Get paid direct. Ideally have tenants with a disability component, or get them to play up memory/mental disorders. If you can't get paid direct, get them to open a bank account for the rent payment, and give you the card and PIN.
Understand the yield. If it's significantly less than about 13.7% gross, don't buy, and look elsewhere.
Make contact with the local PCSO, etc. Inform on your tenants if you suspect drugs, which are affecting neighbours,etc. Of course, then offer the Plod a spare key, if they are planning a raid...
Understand the tax system. Claim for absolutely everything you can legally claim for.

DON'Ts
Rent to youngsters. (It's now uneconomical anyway to rent to anyone under 35.) They will be a headache, and attract even bigger headaches.[Drugs/Casual vandalism/"parties"/noise,etc.]
Delay if the tenant misses a payment or goes crazy. Don't think things will 'get better'. It never does. Act fast. Have an eviction pack ready for each tenant just in case [Section-21 is going to be abolished in any case, so this is now moot]
Buy and rent houses. The risk/reward matrix simply isn't in your favour.
Rent to working people. On the 2* occasions I rented to a worker, one put the rent on a horse, and he then (thankfully) absconded. The other guy was too proud to sign on, when he lost his job, and again (thankfully) absconded. The benefits system at least offers some redress on the other hand, for missed payments. I have a tenant who tried to take me for £2k. His meagre benefits are now being significantly deducted to repay me for his stupidity... I think he's down about 20% a month in his income until it's paid off.
Maintain the properties, beyond what is absolutely necessary in your own interest. HB tenants often have a network of family/friends who can re-decorate, etc for free. HB tenants tend to have low expectations - they know the alternative may be a cardboard box, or at best couch-surfing forever.
Buy seemingly attractive house-to-flat conversions, without careful advice. They may not meet building regs, and could be unlettable. [Living rooms/bedrooms that must exit through a kitchen are the classic no-no...]



I have a similar situation- mind me asking what you did - Money Claim On Line and an attachment of earnings ?


The actual eviction, 15 years ago, was under a very different landscape. I did it all myself, and when it got to court [muppet tenant didn't turn up] the lady judge congratulated me on covering all the bases, and granted me possession. [I had some previous experience in another sphere of running rings around clowns-in-gowns, both on and off the bench, as a litigant-in-person, and so was quite confident]

Nowadays, I would use a dedicated specialist. The complications are too great. I can recommend EVICTHEM [one "T"] in Oldham.

Can't speak for money orders, etc. If I have a problem, I just want possession, and am happy to write-off arrears. [Not worth the hassle chasing people on benefits for years who are no longer your tenant.]

Beware counter-claims. Ambulance-chasing lawyers may be able to mount a claim against YOU, on behalf of the tenant...

If you're talking exclusively about a benefits tenant.
I simply rung up UC and said I was going to evict him if his arrears were not forthcoming from his benefits.
Issued him a Section-21 notice and copied it to UC, with a schedule of arrears...

He's still my tenant, and still paying off his arrears.[UC deduct from his benefits, and pay it directly to me, along with his monthly rent.]


many thanks - my situation is different - tenant who is working, a good job on oil rigs apparently - did a runner owing 5 months rent - we've got the property back (using a specialist), but now I want my arrears. It seems debt collectors don't do the legal claims (well the ones I have spoken to) and you either need to use a solicitor or do a MCOL yourself - I have have done a succesful MCOL for a different dispute so will probably give that a go.
Newbie
Posted: 24 June 2024 22:58:33(UTC)
#13

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Thanks: 6012 times
Was thanked: 7026 time(s) in 2603 post(s)
Neminem Laedit;309684 wrote:
[quote=Newbie;309682]But in the meantime, you are 100% exposed to the hypothetical "nightmare tenant".

I'm not. I'm fireproof. 20+ years and counting. Believe me, I've seen it ALL...

Cannabis farms
Abstraction of electricity
Drugs raids
Good tenants leaving because of the above.
Flood because the tenant fled due to cold; her flat iced up (no heat, as she helpfully switched everything off), then thawed and burst onto the one below, destroying it.
More...

True but these are the precise reasons why I buy decent houses.
Look for professionals such Doctors, Dentists etc (where there is reputational risk for them), or professional couple who has moved to get access to the nearby good school for their kids and potentially save on private school fees.

This could include overseas professionals who have secured employment/contracts s in one of the locally based muti-national corporations (research, IT contracts etc). Even better if their employer just pays me - no issues with annual rises and this can be more than the private rental sector.

Even had one employer take property for 3 years and ensured property was returned just as it was when they signed the tenancy.

I also take out insurances to cover myself.

I've also positioned myself in a spot where most of my tenants want to move up ie go to a bigger and better house and in a more affluent part part of town where their kids school friends live (ie £1m + properties).

This way I get to avoid the hoi polloi and the baggage they bring. For me the vetting is very important. I want to know the job they do (more so than the salary they earn as most of my tenants are HRT or ART individually).

I want my agents to ascertain soft things like
- their educational background and what, were they studied.
- whether earnings or career is more important
- how long they have been in their current role (and relationship)
- their attitude towards family
- which school they want to send their kids to and if it is important
- etc etc.

The hard factual things can be done on a desk and can be insured against but the soft things needs to be done at multiple meets, viewings (despite plenty of offers without any viewing which is the norm here, I will never accept a tenant who has not met with the agents or viewed the property), interviews, references personally checked on top of standard desktop ones.
1 user thanked Newbie for this post.
Jay P on 26/06/2024(UTC)
Neminem Laedit
Posted: 24 June 2024 23:14:20(UTC)
#14

Joined: 17/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,473

Newbie;309686 wrote:
Neminem Laedit;309684 wrote:
[quote=Newbie;309682]But in the meantime, you are 100% exposed to the hypothetical "nightmare tenant".

I'm not. I'm fireproof. 20+ years and counting. Believe me, I've seen it ALL...

Cannabis farms
Abstraction of electricity
Drugs raids
Good tenants leaving because of the above.
Flood because the tenant fled due to cold; her flat iced up (no heat, as she helpfully switched everything off), then thawed and burst onto the one below, destroying it.
More...

True but these are the precise reasons why I buy decent houses.
Look for professionals such Doctors, Dentists etc (where there is reputational risk for them), or professional couple who has moved to get access to the nearby good school for their kids and potentially save on private school fees.

This could include overseas professionals who have secured employment/contracts s in one of the locally based muti-national corporations (research, IT contracts etc). Even better if their employer just pays me - no issues with annual rises and this can be more than the private rental sector.

Even had one employer take property for 3 years and ensured property was returned just as it was when they signed the tenancy.

I also take out insurances to cover myself.

I've also positioned myself in a spot where most of my tenants want to move up ie go to a bigger and better house and in a more affluent part part of town where their kids school friends live (ie £1m + properties).

This way I get to avoid the hoi polloi and the baggage they bring. For me the vetting is very important. I want to know the job they do (more so than the salary they earn as most of my tenants are HRT or ART individually).

I want my agents to ascertain soft things like
- their educational background and what, were they studied.
- whether earnings or career is more important
- how long they have been in their current role (and relationship)
- their attitude towards family
- which school they want to send their kids to and if it is important
- etc etc.

The hard factual things can be done on a desk and can be insured against but the soft things needs to be done at multiple meets, viewings (despite plenty of offers without any viewing which is the norm here, I will never accept a tenant who has not met with the agents or viewed the property), interviews, references personally checked on top of standard desktop ones.


Fine and Dandy. Now tell me how much you've made.

I've made a million in rents, courtesy of the tax-payer...

+£300k capital gain, tax on which I intend to reduce to the minimum by moving abroad when I sell.
Newbie
Posted: 25 June 2024 00:56:08(UTC)
#15

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Thanks: 6012 times
Was thanked: 7026 time(s) in 2603 post(s)
Neminem Laedit;309687 wrote:
Newbie;309686 wrote:
Neminem Laedit;309684 wrote:
[quote=Newbie;309682]But in the meantime, you are 100% exposed to the hypothetical "nightmare tenant".

I'm not. I'm fireproof. 20+ years and counting. Believe me, I've seen it ALL...

Cannabis farms
Abstraction of electricity
Drugs raids
Good tenants leaving because of the above.
Flood because the tenant fled due to cold; her flat iced up (no heat, as she helpfully switched everything off), then thawed and burst onto the one below, destroying it.
More...

True but these are the precise reasons why I buy decent houses.
Look for professionals such Doctors, Dentists etc (where there is reputational risk for them), or professional couple who has moved to get access to the nearby good school for their kids and potentially save on private school fees.

This could include overseas professionals who have secured employment/contracts s in one of the locally based muti-national corporations (research, IT contracts etc). Even better if their employer just pays me - no issues with annual rises and this can be more than the private rental sector.

Even had one employer take property for 3 years and ensured property was returned just as it was when they signed the tenancy.

I also take out insurances to cover myself.

I've also positioned myself in a spot where most of my tenants want to move up ie go to a bigger and better house and in a more affluent part part of town where their kids school friends live (ie £1m + properties).

This way I get to avoid the hoi polloi and the baggage they bring. For me the vetting is very important. I want to know the job they do (more so than the salary they earn as most of my tenants are HRT or ART individually).

I want my agents to ascertain soft things like
- their educational background and what, were they studied.
- whether earnings or career is more important
- how long they have been in their current role (and relationship)
- their attitude towards family
- which school they want to send their kids to and if it is important
- etc etc.

The hard factual things can be done on a desk and can be insured against but the soft things needs to be done at multiple meets, viewings (despite plenty of offers without any viewing which is the norm here, I will never accept a tenant who has not met with the agents or viewed the property), interviews, references personally checked on top of standard desktop ones.


Fine and Dandy. Now tell me how much you've made.

I've made a million in rents, courtesy of the tax-payer...

Not sure how much I have made but details of some of the latest holdings which I have had to tinker with.

Last Completed sale
Purchase price - £174k (£26k deposit / outlay)
Sale Price - £325k
Gross Capital Gain after expenses - £144k
CGT - £37k
Net Capital Gain - £107k Gain
Rental Gain during hold period - £40k
Total Gain £150k or 6k on original deposit
Twist benefit - kept side garden for a potential 2 bed bungalow £150-200k outlay £300k sale
Thus Extra £100k conservative extra

Current Hold
Purchase price £216k (£52k deposit)
Current Price - £450k on a bad day (agents put it circa £475-£500k)
Gross capital gain - £234k
Net Capital Gain (after CGT allowances) - £174k
+ Rental Gain during hold - £69k
Total Potential Gain as is - £243k
Twist benefit - Currently 3 bed semi with side garage.
Potential knock down of garage and put 2 storey wrap around at cost of circa £175 - £200k
Potential sale £800k (neighbor did similar and sold for £850k - £25k below asking)

Current Hold
Purchase price £48k (1988)
Current Valuation - £500k
Gross Capital Gain - £ £450k
+ Rental Gain - £156k
3 Bed semi (only by name) can only add loft conversion - will add circa £70 - £100k if remodeled)

Current Hold
Purchase price £150k
Current Valuation £300k
+ Rental Gain - £69k

Currently Going through
Purchase price £185k (23k deposit)
Agreed Part sale (keeping separate garage and garden behind garage £325k
Net Capital Gain - £140k
Capital Gain after CGT (3) - £84k
+ Rental Gain - £32k
3 Bed semi with large side plot and separate garage which can be knocked down and like opposite neighbor can put up a 3 bed detached (in name as no real land left apart from rear and front.) Previous owner kept rear half of garden which adjoins road on side and built themselves a 5 bed detached.

These are the notable ones of mention but not all of them currently in portfolio there are two with no mortgages. Rest have mortgages all below 50% LTV. That too because I decided to release equity in 2020 and buy a couple more a 3 bed semi and a 2 bed coach house.

Majority of my sales over the years have been to my tenants and for many properties, I rarely set foot in after the keys are handed to agents even though 2 are round the corner from me (though I always keep rental properties in the UK local but never meet the tenants - was shocked when a tenant bumped into me in town and introduced themselves as my tenant did not feel right and politely pointed them towards the agents).

There is a plot round the corner where a 3 bed detached with 2 separate garages sit by the side _ more and very large long rear garden on market for £750k. Agent has stated the developers have already pushed it over £900k - plan is to knock it down and build two decent 4 bed houses and market them for over a £1m each - they will sell easily.

I do remember the first property of mine bought for £30k sold for £110k (panicked on fear breakup and other half coming after asset). Also remember my parents having lots of issues with DSS tenants and properties in bad neighborhoods - so completely avoid all that.

For me BTL investing is more about a store of wealth as opposed to anything else. It is there if my offspring or family run into difficulties. If they fall off the rails they get nothing

Friends of parents bough a bought a house £2k (I was told this so not verified) in the late 70's and recently sold for £850k but will loose it all for care costs.
3 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Neminem Laedit on 25/06/2024(UTC), Tim D on 25/06/2024(UTC), Jay P on 26/06/2024(UTC)
Neminem Laedit
Posted: 25 June 2024 01:20:50(UTC)
#16

Joined: 17/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,473

My old Dad bought a cottage in the IOM for about £30k in 1993, the cheapest property on the island at that time, IIRC. [It had not been updated since the 1930s]

Sold sixteen years later for £339k. The purchaser was desperate, and later discovered a river running under the foundations. Lol...
https://shorter.me/OYaMh


My uncle bought a house, IIRC, for £8.5k in 1972.
Sold in 1990 for around £350k. [posh part of Merseyside, 98% white]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blundellsands
https://shorter.me/uPmTu

It's £1m+ today. [converted into a nursing home]
Harry Turnbull
Posted: 26 June 2024 09:07:15(UTC)
#17

Joined: 27/05/2024(UTC)
Posts: 12

Very lots of food for thought here as a newbie. I was initially attracted to Find UK properties as they acquire, refurbish, tenant and have guaranteed rentals although yields are 5/6% and the market value they sell to you are massive overpriced, like Homes Under The Hammer on steroids (they are proud of appearing five times but dont get an agent evaluation at the end of the refurbishment process - they just pin it to a tier of prices). Many of the lower end properties (70-90k) are in undersireable streets. I don't like it all now.
Conversely, a one bedroom bungalow in need of some cosmetics has become available in our Cheshire village for 100k - that's cheap round here.
My next question is finance. I have 70k cash - can you get a mortgage for 30k? or how about a bridging loan but they look pretty expensive.
Harry Turnbull
Posted: 27 June 2024 15:20:42(UTC)
#18

Joined: 27/05/2024(UTC)
Posts: 12

And apparently my 3k reservation fee is not refundable.
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