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Gifts from income to reduce - IHT but how to use capital
Geoff Fitz
Posted: 10 November 2024 20:11:29(UTC)
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After the various discussions on this subject I think I am getting a clearer picture. In that I could increase my SIPP withdrawals so ending up with excess income this will put me into 40% tax which is not ideal but growth in the SIPP fund should cover it.

The IHT guidance notes and others comments are clear you cant use capital to support your living expenses.

So my question is how can I legally use my capital as it's obviously going to support my living needs but must they be one off major expenses car, furniture, garden make over etc. Normally this would include holidays but holidays are classed as routine expenditure on IHT 403.

Any thoughts as to how capital may be used without impacting the gifts from income rules.

In addition we can make £6k gifts with no IHT liability (joint gifts 2x3K) are the gifts from income in addition to this. So we give 6k lumpsum gift and 12X£500 out of income. Again thoughts welcome.
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Stephen B.
Posted: 10 November 2024 21:31:21(UTC)
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The basic point of the rule is that people with surplus income, i.e. more income than they spend, can give some of the surplus away rather than accumulating even more capital. If you eat into capital to support your spending you clearly don't have a surplus, you have a deficit ...
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Geoff Fitz on 10/11/2024(UTC), Carl blue nose on 12/11/2024(UTC)
Geoff Fitz
Posted: 10 November 2024 21:50:54(UTC)
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Stephen B.;325236 wrote:
The basic point of the rule is that people with surplus income, i.e. more income than they spend, can give some of the surplus away rather than accumulating even more capital. If you eat into capital to support your spending you clearly don't have a surplus, you have a deficit ...


A fair point but ..... the wording is.... 'If you’re claiming that gifts made by the deceased are exempt as gifts
made as part of normal expenditure out of income'.

The implication of what you say above is that you will never be able to spend the capital as spending it eats into capital. Going on a £10K holiday is not normal spending, buying a new car is not normal spending, buying furniture is not normal spending. I was seeking to clarify what those capital items may be house repairs, decorating, major car repair etc? As I write it is seems that one off, larger costs can be used for capital as they are not normal expenditure.

It does also say that any form of income can be used including income payments from ISA's so would one way to deal with this be to change from accumulation units to income units?
D Bergman
Posted: 11 November 2024 09:59:36(UTC)
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I have always treated capital expenditures that are not "regular" spending as just that - capital. So,
when purchasing a new car for cash that was capital expenditure, but if I would have leased it or bought on hire-purchase, that would have meant regular payments over years so I would have listed these payments as normal expenditure.

The gifts of up to £3,000 per year are in addition to gifts from surplus income, as far as I know.

Incidentally, my spreadsheet for income/expenditure is more detailed than HMRC - I did it myself years before I saw the example in IHT403; I have also always given less every year than the surplus, so if there would be any HMRC queries after my death, my executers would have some leeway in dealing with the issues.

I am still trying to get a definite reply from HMRC on the question of SIPP drawdown - whether it is all considered as income or whether some of it would be considered a return of capital. (The employee I spoke to after a considerable wait told me that drawdown is income, but when I asked if some of the drawdown would be considered return of capital, he seemed very uncertain).

Does anyone know if withdrawing the full 25% tax-free lump sum when moving a SIPP into drawdown counts as income or as repayment of capital for the purpose of gifting?

As I mentioned in another thread, I think that unless HMRC issues much more detailed guidance (and probably a few court decisions come up) this will be a mess for years to come!
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Stephen B.
Posted: 11 November 2024 11:54:44(UTC)
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D Bergman;325269 wrote:
As I mentioned in another thread, I think that unless HMRC issues much more detailed guidance (and probably a few court decisions come up) this will be a mess for years to come!


The rules on gifts aren't new so presumably there already is a fair amount of case law which specialist tax lawyers should know. However, judging by the reaction in these threads there will suddenly be a lot of new gifting to reduce the amount in pensions, so it wouldn't be especially surprising if the rules get changed if it looks like a lot of the expected tax revenue is going to vanish. Also the whole area of PETs is a target for reform - as it stands someone with assets of 20 million can give away 17 million IHT free as long as they live 7 years and still have enough for a reasonable life, which has always looked anomalous.
D Bergman
Posted: 11 November 2024 12:16:49(UTC)
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Stephen B.;325275 wrote:
D Bergman;325269 wrote:
As I mentioned in another thread, I think that unless HMRC issues much more detailed guidance (and probably a few court decisions come up) this will be a mess for years to come!


The rules on gifts aren't new so presumably there already is a fair amount of case law which specialist tax lawyers should know. However, judging by the reaction in these threads there will suddenly be a lot of new gifting to reduce the amount in pensions, so it wouldn't be especially surprising if the rules get changed if it looks like a lot of the expected tax revenue is going to vanish. Also the whole area of PETs is a target for reform - as it stands someone with assets of 20 million can give away 17 million IHT free as long as they live 7 years and still have enough for a reasonable life, which has always looked anomalous.


The rules are not new, as you say, but the issue of using income from SIPPs seems to be new - after all, there was no reason to gift moneys from SIPPs when there was no IHT applied to them.

As I have found out, HMRC guidance does not mention how Pension Drawdown or UFPLS are treated (pure income or mixture of income & return of capital) for the purpose of gifting from income.
And my attempts to get a more precise advice from HMRC has not succeeded.

If they do issue clearer guidance it will make our lives easier, but I'm not holding my breath.

On the PET issue, I decided not to wait and gifted £250K from my GIA recently, and have taken out a 7-year term life insurance for £100K, payable in trust to my beneficiary, to cover IHT in case I don't survive the seven years.
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Stephen B.
Posted: 11 November 2024 12:34:00(UTC)
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D Bergman;325280 wrote:
The rules are not new, as you say, but the issue of using income from SIPPs seems to be new - after all, there was no reason to gift moneys from SIPPs when there was no IHT applied to them.

As I have found out, HMRC guidance does not mention how Pension Drawdown or UFPLS are treated (pure income or mixture of income & return of capital) for the purpose of gifting from income.
And my attempts to get a more precise advice from HMRC has not succeeded.


Under the previous pension rules you had to buy an annuity at age 75 so probably some people tried to reduce the pot ahead of that. I assume that an annuity would all count as income even though technically it's partly a return of capital so logically it should be OK to run it down in a similar way with drawdown, but logic doesn't always apply ... I don't think you'll ever get advice from hmrc, all they do is refer you to the relevant part of the rules, if they aren't clear you need to ask an accountant.
D Bergman
Posted: 11 November 2024 12:58:24(UTC)
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Stephen B.;325282 wrote:
D Bergman;325280 wrote:
The rules are not new, as you say, but the issue of using income from SIPPs seems to be new - after all, there was no reason to gift moneys from SIPPs when there was no IHT applied to them.

As I have found out, HMRC guidance does not mention how Pension Drawdown or UFPLS are treated (pure income or mixture of income & return of capital) for the purpose of gifting from income.
And my attempts to get a more precise advice from HMRC has not succeeded.


Under the previous pension rules you had to buy an annuity at age 75 so probably some people tried to reduce the pot ahead of that. I assume that an annuity would all count as income even though technically it's partly a return of capital so logically it should be OK to run it down in a similar way with drawdown, but logic doesn't always apply ... I don't think you'll ever get advice from hmrc, all they do is refer you to the relevant part of the rules, if they aren't clear you need to ask an accountant.


Annuities - according to HMRC's IHT403 have both a capital and an income element.
These elements seems to be variable:

"The capital element in a purchased life annuity is determined by reference to the amount or value of the payments made or other consideration given for the grant of the annuity. The capital element is fixed when the annuity is purchased and the older the annuitant is, the higher will be the capital element."

(From information by a tax consulting firm - I do not vouch for the veracity of this statement, but it fits in with others I have seen).

I tend to agree with you that getting clear information from HMRC is unlikely, to say the least.
Stephen B.
Posted: 11 November 2024 13:06:19(UTC)
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D Bergman;325286 wrote:
Annuities - according to HMRC's IHT403 have both a capital and an income element.
These elements seems to be variable:


My memory is that there's a difference in treatment between annuities bought ad-hoc with external money and annuities bought with the funds in a pension, but I don't know if that persists once the requirement to buy an annuity has gone.
D Bergman
Posted: 11 November 2024 13:11:35(UTC)
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Stephen B.;325289 wrote:
D Bergman;325286 wrote:
Annuities - according to HMRC's IHT403 have both a capital and an income element.
These elements seems to be variable:


My memory is that there's a difference in treatment between annuities bought ad-hoc with external money and annuities bought with the funds in a pension, but I don't know if that persists once the requirement to buy an annuity has gone.


I think you are correct but I was planning to call HL later today regarding my SIPP and let you know.

EDIT:

According to HL, annuities bought with funds from pensions (SIPPs) are treated as purely income, with no capital element, so are taxed as income at our marginal rate.
So presumably they would be all income for the purpose of Gifts from Surplus Income.

If anyone has information to the contrary please let us know!
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bill xxxx on 13/11/2024(UTC)
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