Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Why are they (politicians) so thick?
Laurence O'Brien
Posted: 19 November 2024 17:47:25(UTC)
#23

Joined: 04/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 943

Thanks: 191 times
Was thanked: 1981 time(s) in 650 post(s)
To answer the OP's question, you need to look at the path to becoming an MP. First you get born into an affluent middle class family which has never experienced hardship. You go to university where you do a degree in PPE, sociology or similar and join the university political society of your choice -doesn’t matter if it’sTory or Labour but the latter is a better choice. From here, the best route is to become a researcher for your political party where you can suck up to your MP and those in a position to get you onto the ladder but a good alternative is to become a local councillor, charity worker or similar. You then apply to be a candidate and with a bit of luck get parachuted into a safe seat even if you have no connection with the constituency.

After the next election, you can bring all your worldly experience to parliament and toe the party line in the hope that you will eventually become a government minister. It also helps if you can claim that your father was working class like a toolmaker or that you know all about rural life because you once lived in the countryside and your first job was working on a farm.
11 users thanked Laurence O'Brien for this post.
Guest on 19/11/2024(UTC), Jay P on 19/11/2024(UTC), Newbie on 19/11/2024(UTC), Robin B on 19/11/2024(UTC), stephen_s on 19/11/2024(UTC), Nigel Harris on 19/11/2024(UTC), Alex Peard on 19/11/2024(UTC), Frank Spencer on 20/11/2024(UTC), Chalky W on 20/11/2024(UTC), Dexi on 20/11/2024(UTC), Roger Chilman on 20/11/2024(UTC)
Pinner Ram
Posted: 19 November 2024 19:40:15(UTC)
#16

Joined: 26/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 95

Andrew1952;326211 wrote:
Pinner Ram;326195 wrote:
Johan De Silva;326190 wrote:

Don't we have ............. a stash of gold we can use to invest in providing finance for growth companies?


No, Gordon Brown sold most of it at a multi-year low price.

PR


No, Gordon Brown signalled his intention in advance, thereby giving all the people who
bought our gold time to force its price down on the international markets.


Yes, and then at a multi year low he sold it.
Thanks for the added background though.

PR
Newbie
Posted: 19 November 2024 20:12:31(UTC)
#24

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Laurence O'Brien;326217 wrote:
To answer the OP's question, you need to look at the path to becoming an MP. First you get born into an affluent middle class family which has never experienced hardship. You go to university where you do a degree in PPE, sociology or similar and join the university political society of your choice -doesn’t matter if it’sTory or Labour but the latter is a better choice. From here, the best route is to become a researcher for your political party where you can suck up to your MP and those in a position to get you onto the ladder but a good alternative is to become a local councillor, charity worker or similar. You then apply to be a candidate and with a bit of luck get parachuted into a safe seat even if you have no connection with the constituency.

After the next election, you can bring all your worldly experience to parliament and toe the party line in the hope that you will eventually become a government minister. It also helps if you can claim that your father was working class like a toolmaker or that you know all about rural life because you once lived in the countryside and your first job was working on a farm.

If you need more clarification you can also research into Pitt the Younger !
Difference is Pitt the elder bought rotten boroughs and spent his wealth to get younger in Govt and eventually PM.

In terms of "Why are they (politicians) so thick?"
Well probably because you simply need to prove that you are breathing and alive to be a politician and MP - no other qualification or experience needed.

In the future do not be surprised if a buffoon dresses up as a monkey prancing around to get more than enough likes and votes to win the popularity contest and gain a seat - the justification will be that it was won democratically.
Peter Dixon
Posted: 19 November 2024 20:47:50(UTC)
#25

Joined: 29/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 184

Thanks: 107 times
Was thanked: 426 time(s) in 134 post(s)
What fascinates me is that so many land-owning farmers have assets that could now make their heirs liable for IIHT (albeit at half the rate paid by the rest of us and payable over 10 years) and apparently barely make a penny profit, it seems. And yet, at the same time, they want their families to take over the business.

It's a mystery. If they do make so little profit on assets of several millions, they don't seem to be running much of a business. Shouldn't they be encouraging their families to sell up, perhaps to one of the many tenant farmers who would love to own their own farm, invest their resulting millions in the markets etc. as the rest of us do, and have more competent owners running their broken former business?

Or is it just that having to pay tax like the rest of us isn't a club they want to join?
2 users thanked Peter Dixon for this post.
Tim D on 20/11/2024(UTC), Dexi on 20/11/2024(UTC)
s patel
Posted: 19 November 2024 21:11:15(UTC)
#29

Joined: 06/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 408


And non-politicians aren’t?
Newbie
Posted: 19 November 2024 21:20:51(UTC)
#26

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Peter Dixon;326236 wrote:
What fascinates me is that so many land-owning farmers have assets that could now make their heirs liable for IIHT (albeit at half the rate paid by the rest of us and payable over 10 years) and apparently barely make a penny profit, it seems. And yet, at the same time, they want their families to take over the business.

It's a mystery. If they do make so little profit on assets of several millions, they don't seem to be running much of a business. Shouldn't they be encouraging their families to sell up, perhaps to one of the many tenant farmers who would love to own their own farm, invest their resulting millions in the markets etc. as the rest of us do, and have more competent owners running their broken former business?

Or is it just that having to pay tax like the rest of us isn't a club they want to join?

Land like Gold has been a store of wealth since the dawn of time.
I am aware of many senior execs who are technically farmers and but also earn £1m+ bonus each year.

Visit an exclusive old gentlemans club and you will find many wealth landowners/farmers doing multi million pound deals all whilst wearing brown in town and sitting comfortably in a wingback draped with cow or two.

Those deals are not about their farming business but regading FTSE 100 companies. Yet schools are taught that brown in town is a no go (it needs to be black).

One of those gentleman/farmer/Lloyds of London exec just last week shook hands at a club and signed some paperwork to finalise buying his daughter (still at Uni) her first home. He was a bit miffed about the £800k stamp duty !

He has multiple properties around the world including a few in Mayfar, is mainly traveling on his yacht but his family farm has been with him for generations - for such people, land is the only asset which he can really trust and rely on. It has stood the test of time. Banks, insurance companies, corporations have all gone to the hilt but their farm has been handed down for centuries and accumulates in value.

I guess this is what they actually mean when they say that the wealthy invest in Real Estate, not the REIT's which are sold to normal investors. The wealthy do not buy financial instruments linked to Real Estate, they actually own real estate which they then leverage. This a far cry from being at the end of a margin call when your stock hits the proverbial. That is not. to say that they do not have stocks, bank deposits, art, wines, gold etc, but land, to them has been the source of their true wealth preservation vehicle which has increased in line and more with times and inflation. It is the asset which they actually trust for the long term and back in the 90's and 2000's he was simply buying more farmland £10k a pop and waiting till planning was granted (some have been granted others he is waiting).

On a slight tangent, my neighbor has just sold a slice of his garden on the side of his main residence for £350k with many covenants on what could be built there (max 3 bed bungalow/house - and given that size of the plot you would struggle to get a 3 bed property on it anyhow). So land as an investment does pay well.
2 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Tim D on 20/11/2024(UTC), Dexi on 20/11/2024(UTC)
Robin B
Posted: 19 November 2024 21:59:09(UTC)
#30

Joined: 01/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 1,523

Thanks: 1519 times
Was thanked: 4636 time(s) in 1247 post(s)
The system incentivises how it all is.

The politicians aren't really all that important, despite what we might think. They have very little decision making power - a secretary of state can't even fire anybody - but they take 100% of the responsibility, as presented by the media and understood by the general public, who are focused on the surface pantomime level.

People arguing over Conservative and Labour is half the problem. The real power and decision making is with people we have never heard of and we do not get to vote them out when they fail, which they do - constantly. The manifestos are virtually irrelevant as most of the significant issues are considered settled and the system will deliver the elite objectives whether the general public like it or not. Politicians fail to stop the boats and achieve various other stated objectives because it is virtually impossible for them to do otherwise.

Not that I'm defending the politicians, who are poorly qualified (mainly lawyers and PPE grads) and have personalities and skill sets more suited to what is a crap version of show business rather than thoughtful administration. It is true that good and effective politicians can have some positive effect on what is a bad system, and the rubbish ones which we've been treated to for the past 30 years, can make things even worse. But we shouldn't overlook that it is the system that is the problem.

We are heading for the same collapse whether Labour or Tories are in charge, just that the exact pace and style might be slightly different. The Tories are total garbage who got out of power just in the nick of time after fourteen years of failure, and now we have another load of dung moving deck chairs around on the same sinking ship. It might be easier to focus on the tip of the iceberg, but the problems go much, much deeper than that.
6 users thanked Robin B for this post.
Guest on 19/11/2024(UTC), Nigel Harris on 19/11/2024(UTC), Jay P on 19/11/2024(UTC), stephen_s on 20/11/2024(UTC), john brace on 20/11/2024(UTC), Dexi on 20/11/2024(UTC)
Sara G
Posted: 19 November 2024 22:09:05(UTC)
#27

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4,042

Thanks: 13081 times
Was thanked: 16855 time(s) in 3511 post(s)
Peter Dixon;326236 wrote:
What fascinates me is that so many land-owning farmers have assets that could now make their heirs liable for IIHT (albeit at half the rate paid by the rest of us and payable over 10 years) and apparently barely make a penny profit, it seems. And yet, at the same time, they want their families to take over the business.

It's a mystery. If they do make so little profit on assets of several millions, they don't seem to be running much of a business. Shouldn't they be encouraging their families to sell up, perhaps to one of the many tenant farmers who would love to own their own farm, invest their resulting millions in the markets etc. as the rest of us do, and have more competent owners running their broken former business?

Or is it just that having to pay tax like the rest of us isn't a club they want to join?


The value of land is generally based on its potential to be used for purposes other than farming, as I understand it (green projects being one of them). So land values bear no relation to the profitability of the business. What does impact the bottom line (other than taxes, including higher taxes on fertilizer, not just IHT) are increasing costs due to inflation, and the cost of employing people, plus the ability of supermarkets to negotiate successfully to the extent that margins become very thin.

I'm not sure I understand why a tenant farmer buying the land (assuming they could afford to) would be any more competent than the current owners, in fact I don't see any evidence of widespread incompetence in the farming industry (or at least not to the same extent that it exists among politicians).

As regards the IHT, disagreements over how many farms are affected aside, an article today on Bloomberg (by John Stepek) suggested that the main issue with it is that it seems perverse to apply a tax that potentially destabilises an ongoing business, just at the time where it is having to manage succession. Merryn Somerset Webb has suggested that (in lieu of backtracking, which would be preferable), the government might consider only applying the tax should the farm and its assets be sold, with the tax liability tapering off over 20 years. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
9 users thanked Sara G for this post.
Alex Peard on 19/11/2024(UTC), Jay P on 19/11/2024(UTC), Sheerman on 20/11/2024(UTC), Guest on 20/11/2024(UTC), andy on 20/11/2024(UTC), Roger Chilman on 20/11/2024(UTC), Martina on 20/11/2024(UTC), OmegaMale on 20/11/2024(UTC), Dexi on 20/11/2024(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 19 November 2024 23:39:52(UTC)
#34

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

Thanks: 4548 times
Was thanked: 8771 time(s) in 3091 post(s)
Quote:
Don't we have a sovereign wealth fund or a stash of gold we can use to invest in providing finance for growth companies?

Yes we do - it is your pension pot.
1 user thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Tim D on 20/11/2024(UTC)
Robert D
Posted: 20 November 2024 00:03:59(UTC)
#31

Joined: 06/11/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,479

Thanks: 395 times
Was thanked: 1850 time(s) in 844 post(s)
Robin B;326243 wrote:

We are heading for the same collapse whether Labour or Tories are in charge, just that the exact pace and style might be slightly different. The Tories are total garbage who got out of power just in the nick of time after fourteen years of failure, and now we have another load of dung moving deck chairs around on the same sinking ship. It might be easier to focus on the tip of the iceberg, but the problems go much, much deeper than that.


And your solution is?
1 user thanked Robert D for this post.
Tim D on 20/11/2024(UTC)
5 PagesPrevious page12345Next page
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets