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Sipps and granchildren and tax.
Never Twice Fooled
Posted: 28 November 2024 11:25:34(UTC)
#1

Joined: 21/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 500

Has anyone any personal knowledge of how financial regulations treat money left to grandchildren.

The NEW inheritance taxing of SIPPS makes me think that I should leave part of my SIPP to my 5 grandchildren.

Whilst 40% tax will be paid (I am above the thresholds for taxation) the grandchildren could withdraw money up to their personal tax free income limit each year.

My query is can their parents do this on their behalf and spend it.

Alternatively they could withdraw the maximum amount each year and deposit it in an ISA for the child !

I also wonder what options those who inherit a sipp will have. Currently as I understand it they can either withdraw all the money (not sure if it is taxed again at this point) or leave it in the SIPP wrapper (and pay marginal tax rate on withdrawals).

Thoughts anyone.
Rookie Investor
Posted: 28 November 2024 11:30:59(UTC)
#2

Joined: 09/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,087

I imagine if the grandchildren are the beneficiaries of your SIPP, the money can not be spent on their parents so at best it can only be spent for the benefit of the child. Much like a bare trust. Or maybe it can not be accessed till 18 like a JISA?
D Bergman
Posted: 28 November 2024 11:54:04(UTC)
#3

Joined: 22/03/2018(UTC)
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Never Twice Fooled;327122 wrote:
Has anyone any personal knowledge of how financial regulations treat money left to grandchildren.

The NEW inheritance taxing of SIPPS makes me think that I should leave part of my SIPP to my 5 grandchildren.

1. Whilst 40% tax will be paid (I am above the thresholds for taxation) the grandchildren could withdraw money up to their personal tax free income limit each year.

2. My query is can their parents do this on their behalf and spend it.

3. Alternatively they could withdraw the maximum amount each year and deposit it in an ISA for the child !

4. I also wonder what options those who inherit a sipp will have. Currently as I understand it they can either withdraw all the money (not sure if it is taxed again at this point) or leave it in the SIPP wrapper (and pay marginal tax rate on withdrawals).

Thoughts anyone.


I've numbered your points above for convenience.

1. You are correct - every person has their own annual income tax allowance.

2. Interesting question.
AFAIK, spending solely for the child's benefit - for example on school fees - would be acceptable to HMRC. But general spending, eg food for the family or the child's proportion of a family holiday, would not be acceptable.
(This is an issue that advice from a tax accountant would be sensible).

3. Withdrawing up to the personal allowance and then investing in a junior ISA (and, indeed, a SIPP or GIA) in the child's name is fine.

4. Withdrawal of all the money (or any amount) will mean that marginal tax for the relevant fiscal year will be payable on the withdrawn cash.

In any case, I would suggest waiting until the results of the Treasury's consultation document are published.
4 users thanked D Bergman for this post.
Never Twice Fooled on 28/11/2024(UTC), what me worry? on 29/11/2024(UTC), Suburban Lesley on 29/11/2024(UTC), Carl blue nose on 30/11/2024(UTC)
Never Twice Fooled
Posted: 28 November 2024 13:15:50(UTC)
#4

Joined: 21/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 500

D Bergman;327127 wrote:
[quote=Never Twice Fooled;327122

In any case, I would suggest waiting until the results of the Treasury's consultation document are published.


I find it hard to believe that they would implement a system that took 40% and possibly a further 20 or 40% on the withdrawals.

Surely we would all scream BLUE MURDER on such a scheme which is levied on anything above £1m especially when we see the reliefs that TRUSTS and farmers etc have.

I read that 150-200 of the landed gentry avoid inheritance taxes because their property is regarded as HERITAGE despite their also having it as their home. Rant I know but I did my best to plan to leave my hard earned money for my kids.
4 users thanked Never Twice Fooled for this post.
Jay P on 28/11/2024(UTC), what me worry? on 29/11/2024(UTC), Suburban Lesley on 29/11/2024(UTC), Carl blue nose on 30/11/2024(UTC)
Andrew1952
Posted: 29 November 2024 14:08:45(UTC)
#6

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Never Twice Fooled;327136 wrote:
D Bergman;327127 wrote:
[quote=Never Twice Fooled;327122

In any case, I would suggest waiting until the results of the Treasury's consultation document are published.


I find it hard to believe that they would implement a system that took 40% and possibly a further 20 or 40% on the withdrawals.

Surely we would all scream BLUE MURDER on such a scheme which is levied on anything above £1m especially when we see the reliefs that TRUSTS and farmers etc have.

I read that 150-200 of the landed gentry avoid inheritance taxes because their property is regarded as HERITAGE despite their also having it as their home. Rant I know but I did my best to plan to leave my hard earned money for my kids.


This only became an issue after Osborne removed the requirement to buy an annuity
at age 75. Final salary pensions cannot be left to anyone apart the surviving spouse and
on her death any notional money left over is retained by the pension scheme.

Ditto annuities.

QED, the new situation is still not as 'bad' as the pre-2016 arrangements.

Remember Jeanne Calment who lived to 122 (maybe)
Read the final paragrapgh carefully !.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

1 user thanked Andrew1952 for this post.
Never Twice Fooled on 01/12/2024(UTC)
what me worry?
Posted: 29 November 2024 14:53:02(UTC)
#5

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Never Twice Fooled;327136 wrote:
D Bergman;327127 wrote:
[quote=Never Twice Fooled;327122

In any case, I would suggest waiting until the results of the Treasury's consultation document are published.


I find it hard to believe that they would implement a system that took 40% and possibly a further 20 or 40% on the withdrawals.

Surely we would all scream BLUE MURDER on such a scheme which is levied on anything above £1m especially when we see the reliefs that TRUSTS and farmers etc have.

I read that 150-200 of the landed gentry avoid inheritance taxes because their property is regarded as HERITAGE despite their also having it as their home. Rant I know but I did my best to plan to leave my hard earned money for my kids.


We all screamed BLUE MURDER about the heating allowance..............
2 users thanked what me worry? for this post.
Guest on 29/11/2024(UTC), Never Twice Fooled on 01/12/2024(UTC)
Elspeth Beaton
Posted: 29 November 2024 16:13:57(UTC)
#7

Joined: 11/12/2019(UTC)
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I suppose SIPPs are really meant to pension you and your wife - not your children and grandchildren!
xxd09
5 users thanked Elspeth Beaton for this post.
D Bergman on 29/11/2024(UTC), Julianw on 29/11/2024(UTC), Lesley J on 29/11/2024(UTC), Carl blue nose on 30/11/2024(UTC), Never Twice Fooled on 01/12/2024(UTC)
Suburban Lesley
Posted: 29 November 2024 18:27:37(UTC)
#8

Joined: 15/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 2

Elspeth Beaton;327230 wrote:
I suppose SIPPs are really meant to pension you and your wife - not your children and grandchildren!
xxd09


I need a private pension to top up a gap in pension contributions. I don't have much money and my DB pensions cannot be passed on - I have no spouse.

Any money in my private pension I would like to go to my family. If I live to a ripe old age, I will be able to do so with dignity. If I do not, I want it to be passed on because I do not have much to leave anyway.

I understand pensions are not a tool to pass on wealth but there will be others in my position who decide not to be prudent.
The DIY Annuity
Posted: 30 November 2024 10:33:50(UTC)
#9

Joined: 10/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 26

Retired tax specialist here. (Sadly, but in reality, not at all sadly) I retired before the pension freedoms came in so I never studied them.

In my view the Treasury is twisting the knife here.

It's quite clear that they are retaining the current rule making the transferred pot subject to Income Tax as it's drawn out. (Yes PA is available.)

The IHT is paid in part by the estate and in part direct out of the SIPP. At least the nightmare of having to draw taxed 'pension' to pay IHT is not there.

The SIPP doesn't pay 40%; it receives a proportion of the IHT Nil rate allowance.

Let me explain a Treasury example (with easier figures and fewer 000s to make it more clear):
Estate £1000, SIPP £250. Nil rate band £350 (for convenience)
Current: Taxable estate £650 Tax £260

New: Total estate £1250. Taxable estate £900. Tax £360
Estate pays £1000 ÷ £1250 x £360 = £288
SIPP pays £250 ÷ £1250 x £360 = £72

The existing estate pays £28,000 more tax because there's a SIPP
The SIPP pays less than 40% meaning more of the fund remains to suffer Income Tax upon withdrawal.
The proposed rule (Sorry. Possible rule.It is a discussion document!) reduces the freely distributable estate and maximises the 'taxable when drawn' estate.

It would be fairer (and in 35 years of tax that's a word rarely seen) if the SIPP paid the whole of the 'extra' tax. But it would reduce the future tax take.

The DIY Annuity
Posted: 30 November 2024 10:51:21(UTC)
#10

Joined: 10/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 26

Re the use of income drawn from a SIPP inherited by a minor.

Unless the donor left complex instructions to the SIPP trustees it would be a Bare Trust.

There's no tax rule restricting the use of withdrawn money. It's governed by the law and case law relating to the actions of trustees.

A minor attaining majority is entitled to examine any expenditure and challenge it in the courts. My view is that flagrant extravagance would be culpable but reasonable and explainable expenditure, especially within an impecunious family would be more easily defended.

My old senior partner hammered into us that everything we did, and this would also apply to a trustee, might one day be read out in court so document your actions and reasoning.
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