The KidKad;333562 wrote:
Laurence, I will be direct here - this framing here is part of the problem - did we hold all Irish people accountable for things done by the IRA? And most would agree it is anti-Semitic to hold all Jews accountable for the acts of a state which does barbaric things in their name. But it is apparently fine to assume the worst about all Muslims unless they publicly declare their position from the rooftops at every juncture. I am no more a representative of the entire diverse Muslim community in the UK than you are of the Irish (going by your name - forgive me if Ive got that wrong) community. This is a double standard by any measure.
And to Robin directly - I may have been triggered by your recent comment but I'm actually making a wider point as you are certainly not the first on here to have posted on this matter of Muslims supposed inferiority or inability to integrate etc etc. There is a tone of it that permeates not just this forum but others elsewhere such as Reddit threads and that has prompted me to say enough-is-enough to this open season on bashing Muslims. These threads of well-heeled , "educated" , professional people prove Baroness Warsi correct when she says this type of prejudice has passed the "dinner party test". And frankly, your understanding is quite superficial if you are quoting India Today as a reliable source on what is happening - you may or may not be aware that Modi and the BJP/RSS org that he represents are deeply hostile to Muslims and are doing everything he can to demonise their own citizens and render them second class or less and are very happy to sow seeds of division abroad to this end also to justify their oppression at home. Fwiw, I am more than happy to discuss what is a complex issue resulting from decades of migration policy, foreign policy interventions, deindustrialisation of swathes of the country, integration policy and yes some social attitudes. However this has to be based on fact and reason starting from a place of good faith and objectivity which is lacking here. The logical conclusion of your train of thought is where the Austrian far right/ AfD are around re-migration of people and that's the disturbing/ disheartening bit. Some of us can see where this is headed as people are manipulated into this "othering" of a community. We seem to learn nothing from history.
Back to to those infra trusts on stubbornly high discounts....
Thank you for your response.
I'm getting two, somewhat contradictory, attitudes here.
1) as a muslim, why should you be answerable for the crimes or behaviour of others? That's fair enough, although I think what was suggested by Laurence was more to do with acknowledgement rather than ownership.
2) you are going to defend Muslims in general against what you see as unfair treatment and prejudice. So you seemingly are willing to be answerable for Muslims despite what was implied?
There appears to be an unwillingness to acknowledge the concerns of the majority in this country, who are the native people. You don't sound like a typical British person to be honest, or like somebody who has fully integrated. You identify as something different, and that identity and how it relates to other groups, seems to engender very strong feelings for you. This is normal human behaviour. But the question of compatibility is very real and present here. You obviously feel resentment about the way you believe others, and British society at large, views and treats Muslims.
You appear to see things from your own perspective but not the perspectives of others. Your posts strongly imply the existence of a separate society with its own identity, agendas and inteterests. I'm afraid Baronness Warsi isn't somebody most of us take seriously and we are dismayed that such a dreadful and divisive figure was ever promoted as she was. But to you, she is somebody who makes perfect sense.
This exchange only confirms some of the fears I have, particularly as you are probably a fairly moderate individual compared to a lot of others who have been allowed to immigrate. I have known a number of Muslims in other countries who were so well integrated that you wouldn't know they had any Muslim heritage unless they told you so. And there are some Muslim countries where the people seem much more moderate than many of those who we have living here. I am not referring to you, or all Muslims.
This country seems to have attracted varieties that are really quite hard line and who many in the world would find it difficult to get along with. Do you accept this or not? You mention India having a problem with Muslims. China does as well. And other east Asian countries. And Europe. And Israel. And parts of Africa. And the US. Is this all entirely down to the unreasonable behaviour of these different nations and peoples, making up the majority of the world's population? Or could there be more to it?
I'm not intending to make any sweeping statements here, and I have muslim-heritage friends who would support what I am saying. In fact, much of what I now think on this subject came from them. What I hope you will see is that I am trying to help you understand how it is that you are coming across to others. There are a lot of people here in Britain whose ancestry goes back thousands of years, who don't owe you anything, but might accept you, and others, if they fit in, have the same values and beliefs, and do not seek to promote incompatible or undesirable customs. This is all very normal and to be expected, is it not?
I will thank you again for helping to facilitate this conversation, which will hopefully lead to a better understanding between people.