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Money v Making Stuff-Should Britain bid farewell to the golden egg of banking.
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 20 June 2011 19:37:03(UTC)
#91

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
ICD

Yes, but...

One of the first things Thatcher did on becoming Prime Minister was to hand ministers and Mandarins copies of the abridged version of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. This articulates the theory than many individuals working for selfish ends will, through the invisible hand of the market, benefit all. The part of the book handed out was: (to paraphrase) about what psychopaths and sociopaths would do and the rest was his version of what decent human beings would do. You can download the full version from Project Gutenberg.

I should be read after:

The Theory of Moral Sentiments (which) was written by Adam Smith in 1759. It provided the ethical, philosophical, psychological, and methodological underpinnings to Smith's later works, including The Wealth of Nations (1776), A Treatise on Public Opulence (1764) (first published in 1937), Essays on Philosophical Subjects (1795), and Lectures on Justice, Police, Revenue, and Arms (1763) (first published in 1896).
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eory_of_Moral_Sentiments
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ICD
Posted: 20 June 2011 21:03:06(UTC)
#92

Joined: 12/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 31
Not quite sure what your point is there, Jeremy. I am OK with the bit about many individuals working for selfish ends will, through the invisible hand of the market, benefit all. Adam Smith was right about that. The rest of your post I don't understand. I know Adam Smith is highly regarded, but things have changed quite a bit since his day. Could he help me understand the Greek problem? Also I find keeping up with modern technology and knowing how to repair cars, wiring, plumbing, computers and operate telephones use up most of my brain cells, so you will have to keep it simple for me,
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 21 June 2011 00:29:21(UTC)
#93

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
ICD

I am saying that Thatcher's message was a hymn of praise to sociopaths. As a military analogy, it is as if Thatcher had said to the army, "If you want to behave like the Nazis in occupied Europe during World War II, go ahead!". We and the Argentines can be grateful she did not. Instead the army has rules of engagement designed to protect innocent civilians and is expected to uphold international humanitarian law. Her version of economics was more barbaric.

Thatcher lauded Adam Smith as the source of conservative and Conservative economic thought but ignored the moral dimension which was most important to him. He saw people as more than money making machines and the purpose of mankind as more than piling up material gains. He knew it is wrong to try to separate economics from ethics, politics, philosophy and morality. Whole people do not try.

Most modern economic thought is an elaboration of Smith's ideas. His moral sentiments are for the most part shared by all the major religions and secular philosophers. Things to do: such as love thy neighbour, honour thy father and thy mother, and things not to do: such as kill, steal, bear false witness, commit adultery, covet thy neighbour's ass and so on.

It is notable that in Oxbridge the study is of PPE - Politics, Philosophy and Economics.

Although Greek debts are so huge that they have become an economic problem; the roots are in corruption, lies, incompetence and all the usual human frailties. Yes, Smith would know what to do.
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engineertony
Posted: 21 June 2011 00:55:52(UTC)
#94

Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 71
ICD welcome.

This wonderful thread covers everything from basic economics of a wild west settlement to the world in 2011.
I have to use analogies because as an engineer I don't fully understand how we got to the present state in economics, it really does look like a big con trick to me.
The wild west farmer digs his fields, the carpenter makes the furniture, the candlestickmaker and baker, horse breeder and tailor, all bartering, that I grasp. I arrive with IOUs saying I have gold back in New England to back up the IOUs which they can change anytime. The townsfolk borrow $1000 each and promise to repay me $1200 a year later, in goods or in IOUs. In fact they all pay me with goods as they have an excess, and use the IOUs to trade with the other producers.
At the end of a few years my IOUs are in circulation as a means of exchanging goods & sevices, and I'm getting a free living, I don't make anything or give any service other than keeping my notebook of who owes me. More importantly no one knows that I have no gold or backing my IOUs are just pieces of paper.
Moral: Bankers, insurance, financial advisers, mortgage brokers, dress it up any way you like, they are all living off the rest of us, they make nothing and expect to live like millionaires.

Jeremy, thanks for the old engine stuff, we'll be down with the sassenachs in July.. Mirrlees Blackstone, ..ahh when Britain led the world, you have to work on these things to appreciate engineering.
Strangely those huge diesel engines, I mean 10 foot high, 20 foot long 16 cylinders, are still made by Sulzer, in Switzerland. Asea Brown Boveri are based in Swizerland, competing with Siemens in electrical engineering, in fact there are more Swiss people working in mechanical and electrical engineering than in their financial sector. Should I add Nestle, and a few big Phrma companies, also Swiss and not financial.
UK used to have Ruston diesels, Paxman, English Electric and I think even Perkins is now a subsidiary of Caterpillar Inc, USA... and someone said Tony don't be downhearted, if the Swiss can make diesels why can't we?
To digress a bit, they have Nestle and we've just lost Cadburys, we don't make our own chocolate. They still make watches, I'm wearing a Tissot..

Patrick Moyhan
Yes skills and training, not sure about the "quite simply" perhaps skills & training in miracles might be appropriate.
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ICD
Posted: 21 June 2011 09:19:29(UTC)
#95

Joined: 12/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 31
Thanks for that, Jeremy. Some 'Yes, buts' come to mind, but I think I will mull over all the interesting stuff I have read as I get on with some manual work. I still identify more with engineertony's assessment, though. I also like old engines, but I would rather use a modern one, that never goes wrong. Engineering, as exhibited by cars for instance has progressed brilliantly in my lifetime. Its a pity you can't say the same about the financial world!
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Anonymous Post
Posted: 21 June 2011 11:20:16(UTC)
#96
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

Still on Life support
The contribution of services to GDP in the USA in recent years has been between 75(seventy five)%, and 80(eighty)% in recent years. Similar to that of the UK.

Prof Eman
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engineertony
Posted: 21 June 2011 13:08:30(UTC)
#97

Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 71
Just watched the first episode of "Made in Britain" BBC2 Evan Davis, it's on the iPlayer for a couple of weeks,
not as simple as we are generally saying on this thread. He's only covered manufacturing, so finance & services later I hope.

ICD
look at Lister CS 5-1 on youtube, there's a guy running this big single cylinder engine on vegetable oil, generating his own electricity and heating his house instead of a radiator.
Your post #95 is covered by the BBC2 documentary above, engineering has kept the flag flying, it is a pity financial services didn't keep up. When BMW, Ford & Nissan took over making cars they used the same workers, so nothing wrong there, but brought in proper management, and that's where the problems still lie, managers who know what they are doing.
When you see the activities at BAE & Maclaren cars you can see that our engineering, innovation and creativity is world beating,
Engineers are responsible for the "brilliant progress" you mention, engineers are responsible for all progress in material goodies, the computers, smartphones & data communications of the financial services, the transport that gets them to their offices, the bridges and tunnels they pass thorugh and the smart air conditioned buildings they work in. They wouldn't have pencils and paper without engineers or even the clothes on their backs.

Prof.
As yet I cannot see how moving capital from one country to another counts as GDP. I can see how I need a means of exchange, money, to sell my engineering skills in exchange for my material needs, but I don't need an army of sharks and bluffers taking a slice every time I move.
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 21 June 2011 18:06:31(UTC)
#98

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
All

On a related topic, something to cheer us up:

UK: Big Ideas for the Future

June 16, 2011 20:19

Source: Research Councils UK

Big Ideas for the Future is a new report from Research Councils UK (RCUK) and Universities UK that explores the excellent research taking place in UK higher education at the moment and what it will mean for us in 20 years time. It features research from all fields including science, engineering, social sciences, medicine and the arts and humanities, and is supported by personalities including Lord Karan Bilimoria, Professor Lord Robert Winston, Dr Alice Roberts and Professor Iain Stewart.

Big Ideas for the Future demonstrates the value of public investment in higher education and research and the positive impact this has on economic growth and the social wellbeing of the UK.

http://www.rcuk.ac.uk/do...sfortheFuturereport.pdf (PDF; 2.9 MB)
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 21 June 2011 18:36:01(UTC)
#99

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
All

Something that does not show up in Thatcher style economics:

UK National Ecosystem Assessment: Understanding nature’s value to society

June 3, 2011 18:57

Source: UK National Ecosystem Assessment (via Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

From Press Release:

The true value of nature can be shown for the very first time thanks to groundbreaking research by hundreds of UK scientists.

The research forms the basis of a major new independent report – the UK National Ecosystem Assessment (UK NEA) – which reveals that nature is worth billions of pounds to the UK economy. The report strengthens the arguments for protecting and enhancing the environment and will be used by the government to direct policy in future.

http://archive.defra.gov...NEA_SynthesisReport.pdf
http://uknea.unep-wcmc.org/

==================
Comment:

I will believe it "will be used by the government to direct policy in future", when I see it.
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Anonymous Post
Posted: 21 June 2011 20:03:50(UTC)
#100
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

Still on Life Support
Swiss GDP 72%Services-lower than ours, 28% Manufacturing - higher than ours.
So much for services in Switzerland.

Prof Eman

Engineertony
Will reply to you shortly.
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