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Blunt Instrument
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:11:06(UTC)

Joined: 21/03/2020(UTC)
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Aminatidi;204717 wrote:
I don't know what will happen tomorrow nobody does.



What I can tell you with certainty is that for an active investor there will be an absolute gulf between the lifetime returns of someone who repeatedly makes investment moves that feel "difficult" and someone else who repeatedly makes moves that feel "easy":

- A "difficult" move is to be scaling out into price strength when investors' mood, including your own, is very optimistic, people are eager to buy, and the prevailing narrative is positive with the outlook good.

- An "easy" move by contrast is to sell into price weakness when investors, including yourself, are becoming increasingly concerned, the market narrative is negative, and the outlook poor.

Applied contrarianism and emotional discipline being key aspects to this.

Any active investor repeating behaviour patterns that feel emotionally "easy" will, over the long term, achieve poor returns. That's most people, by the way, as documented by research such as the regular DALBAR reports, the latest one of which I linked to yesterday:
https://wealthwatchadvis...miumEdition2020_WWA.pdf

If an investor lacks the type of mindset to consistently make "difficult" moves then the evidence indicates they'd achieve far better lifetime returns by handing over responsibility to some process, or entity that takes them (their emotions, essentially) out of the decision-making loop. There's nothing wrong with that, and indeed it can take wisdom and considerable self-awareness to acknowledge it.

I would suggest forgetting about what you think may / may not happen tomorrow and focus more on where you want your portfolio to be in 10, 20, 30, 40 years time. What most dictates that is the type of investing method you choose to *consistently deploy* over that whole period, not what markets might do tomorrow, what inflation number comes up next week, what Putin does month, or what PMI trends pan out over H1.
17 users thanked Blunt Instrument for this post.
TJL on 23/01/2022(UTC), smg8 on 23/01/2022(UTC), Aminatidi on 23/01/2022(UTC), Harry Trout on 23/01/2022(UTC), Vince. on 23/01/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 23/01/2022(UTC), Martina on 23/01/2022(UTC), Robin on 23/01/2022(UTC), John Strom III on 23/01/2022(UTC), Guest on 23/01/2022(UTC), Sheerman on 23/01/2022(UTC), Guchi on 23/01/2022(UTC), J-san on 23/01/2022(UTC), Zach F on 23/01/2022(UTC), Tim D on 23/01/2022(UTC), Elland Road on 23/01/2022(UTC), New Simon T on 24/01/2022(UTC)
Blunt Instrument
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:23:42(UTC)

Joined: 21/03/2020(UTC)
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TJL;204724 wrote:
I can identify with a lot of what you say.
Apologies for being a bit of a smart-arse with my cheeky post yesterday in relation to planning.
I didn't mean to undermine the sensible advice you were offering.
Hopefully, no offence taken (none intended anyway).
Tim


Thought it was a great question!
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TJL on 23/01/2022(UTC)
MarkSp
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:32:07(UTC)

Joined: 02/02/2020(UTC)
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I guess that smell of seared arses on here is something to do with having
a tightly themed portfolio that is on the wrong theme, (this week)

Doom and panic over what has been a relatively small fall or a pretty good gain depending on where you were holding or nout much has happened if you were relatively balanced.

This isn't Covid week where the bottom fell out of everything except in particular areas. As sanity returns the decent stocks in those areas will start to rise again and the crap will continue sinking.

Honestly I am a bit shocked at the doom and gloom.
11 users thanked MarkSp for this post.
smg8 on 23/01/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 23/01/2022(UTC), TJL on 23/01/2022(UTC), Raj K on 23/01/2022(UTC), bédé on 23/01/2022(UTC), Robin on 23/01/2022(UTC), Aminatidi on 23/01/2022(UTC), Guest on 23/01/2022(UTC), Sheerman on 23/01/2022(UTC), Zach F on 23/01/2022(UTC), Martin Stafford on 23/01/2022(UTC)
TJL
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:36:50(UTC)

Joined: 14/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,630

So is sitting tight and not giving in to panic selling (all other things being equal in relation to your chosen portfolio), a 'difficult' move?
I would have thought - yes?
Aminatidi
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:48:04(UTC)

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,870

Blunt Instrument;204732 wrote:
If an investor lacks the type of mindset to consistently make "difficult" moves then the evidence indicates they'd achieve far better lifetime returns by handing over responsibility to some process, or entity that takes them (their emotions, essentially) out of the decision-making loop. There's nothing wrong with that, and indeed it can take wisdom and considerable self-awareness to acknowledge it.

I would suggest forgetting about what you think may / may not happen tomorrow and focus more on where you want your portfolio to be in 10, 20, 30, 40 years time. What most dictates that is the type of investing method you choose to *consistently deploy* over that whole period, not what markets might do tomorrow, what inflation number comes up next week, what Putin does month, or what PMI trends pan out over H1.


An excellent post thanks.

I've cherry picked the couple of parts that stood out for me.

Bits in bold strike a particular note.

I think a bit of a plan is forming.
TJL
Posted: 23 January 2022 13:57:47(UTC)

Joined: 14/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,630

[quote=MarkSp;204736

Honestly I am a bit shocked at the doom and gloom.[/quote]

I was down about 33% in early 2020, which, as we now know included a spectacular rebound (Covid related for many popular choices - granted).
I am 'only' down about 9% so far this year (but still well into profit overall).
My point is (not wanting to sound like I am a clever investor or that I really know what I am doing) - that the doom and gloom is unsettling and can be a very negative but very persuasive 'noise'.
Should we listen to it; is it justified or necessary?
I have no idea, and only time will tell!

Edit: I try not to.
Raj K
Posted: 23 January 2022 14:25:01(UTC)

Joined: 22/04/2016(UTC)
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I think many are traumatised by the ongoing fear, doom and gloom over the last two years. Just be sensible about your investments , not too much with one manager or style, or just go passive and leave the rest up to the gods. All this trying to work out when to sell, when to jump back in , what is going to perform for the next six months to a year, second guessing yourself and all will drive you cookoo.

PS. Those that can do it i take my hat of to you.... for me it does my head in, i think i have aged a ton in the last while.





4 users thanked Raj K for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 23/01/2022(UTC), Tim D on 23/01/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 23/01/2022(UTC), ALAN P on 23/01/2022(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 23 January 2022 14:25:29(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
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The question which is exercising me, is to what extent might we see falls spread beyond high priced tech/growth ?
It doesn’t seem like there is a reason for sell everything falls or a total market crash, and that hasn’t happened so far ?
There is still a negative return from holding cash (actually more negative).

If this is (a) a tech/growth bubble deflating and (b) some adjusting to higher interest rate expectations and (c) some rotation as lockdown restrictions are relaxed, then might we expect...
PE over 25 - additional falls
PE 15-25 - some modest adjustments
PE 5-15 - little change
Interest rates are still very low and the economy very sensitive to rises so modest rate rises of no more than 1% would still leave us in a low rate environment where general stocks remain attractive.
I’d also have thought if central banks want to dampen demand to dampen inflation then fiscal tightening would be preferable as it is likely to be more targetable.

As others say we havn’t seen a general meltdown yet - is there really any reason for one ?
1 user thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Raj K on 23/01/2022(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 23 January 2022 14:33:59(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
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Does anyone know/remember how markets behaved when the dotcom bubble burst - was the whole market swept down ? - or was it just focussed on the bubble stocks ?
MarkSp
Posted: 23 January 2022 14:46:36(UTC)

Joined: 02/02/2020(UTC)
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NoMoreKickingCans;204750 wrote:
The question which is exercising me, is to what extent might we see falls spread beyond high priced tech/growth ?
It doesn’t seem like there is a reason for sell everything falls or a total market crash, and that hasn’t happened so far ?
There is still a negative return from holding cash (actually more negative).

If this is (a) a tech/growth bubble deflating and (b) some adjusting to higher interest rate expectations and (c) some rotation as lockdown restrictions are relaxed, then might we expect...
PE over 25 - additional falls
PE 15-25 - some modest adjustments
PE 5-15 - little change
Interest rates are still very low and the economy very sensitive to rises so modest rate rises of no more than 1% would still leave us in a low rate environment where general stocks remain attractive.
I’d also have thought if central banks want to dampen demand to dampen inflation then fiscal tightening would be preferable as it is likely to be more targetable.

As others say we havn’t seen a general meltdown yet - is there really any reason for one ?


Cans

PE isn't that useful a trailing ratio? Depressed earning due to covid and a static price ==> Higher PE so we should sell?
High PEs are fine if the company warrants a high PE..where I can I try and look for forward PEs
but............
If something happens that indicates that the forward PE isn't going to happen eg lower growth or, margins start to get compressed it will get painful

Look at Netflix...decent results but significantly below the trend they needed to hit their medium term numbers all of a sudden Netflix is "expensive" hence the 25% drop. If next quarter they catch up with the trend, it will be cheap :)

Anything that has strong FCF and high ROCE will be the way to go. i sound like Terry Smith :)

We have just run through a period of bizarre overpricing. I think there is a fair way to go before some of that unwinds. The big difference with the dotcom even was that big tech today is intensely profitable back then shouting WAP or B2B or B2C put another 0 on the share price. I was working for one of the biggest WAP developers at the time and my overwhelming view was WTF is this for. I think there will be plenty reading this who will be asking "Whats is WAP?"
1 user thanked MarkSp for this post.
Sheerman on 23/01/2022(UTC)
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