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Sea of Red
Mostly Rational
Posted: 23 January 2022 15:30:51(UTC)

Joined: 09/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 312

MarkSp;204755 wrote:
We have just run through a period of bizarre overpricing. I think there is a fair way to go before some of that unwinds. The big difference with the dotcom even was that big tech today is intensely profitable back then shouting WAP or B2B or B2C put another 0 on the share price. I was working for one of the biggest WAP developers at the time and my overwhelming view was WTF is this for. I think there will be plenty reading this who will be asking "Whats is WAP?"


Blockchain.
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 23 January 2022 15:52:49(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

Quote:
PE isn't that useful a trailing ratio? Depressed earning due to covid and a static price ==> Higher PE so we should sell?


I wasn’t meaning trailing PE. Forward forecast PE obviously. Or PEG if you like.
It is just a way of saying if there is more uncertainty now then we might expect any contagion from the tech bubble deflating to mostly effect other high valuation metric companies where valuation is more heavily dependent on many future years projected growth.
Robin
Posted: 23 January 2022 15:57:58(UTC)

Joined: 06/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,281

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I am really interested in the tone of some of these messages - trying to time the market on the way down and on the way up is pretty much bound to fail - sure, if you hold on now, there will be some 'told you so' - in the Covid crash we saw some new forum members telling us loudly how obvious it all was and how moving to cash was the prime strategy, how on earth could no one else see that. We didn't hear from them about when they came back in or how they have done since. We also saw Keith Cobby sell SMT at pretty much the bottom - I respect Keith's honesty in this regard.

Is investing (rather than trading) not about having an asset allocation and holding on, perhaps rebalancing when thresholds are out? My PE got smacked last week - HGT and HVPE. They stand combined at about 14.5% of my portfolio. I added (3.5%) to HVPE (sale of SMT) just before they both moved down more heavily.

YTD I am about 4% down. One month I am -2.5%, three months I am marginally up, six months plus 3.5%.

The next weeks could be brutal. But they might not be. Reading these boards do I sell my 10% FS, do I sell HVPE and HGT after a week of fairly heavy loss? Or should I stick with my broad asset allocation? So I sell HVPE (say) - where does the money go? IUKD? For how long? Where next? Peter Walls recently said HVPE is one to hold for the next decade. Max King recently said buy. Article in last few days on Trustnet highlights HVPE as a good alternative pick right now. Who is right and who is wrong?

If I chop and change I am chasing returns - when would the precise point be to go hack into HVPE? I recently posted about Bob -

https://awealthofcommons...lds-worst-market-timer/

There is the Dalbar study.

There is this...
https://www.bogleheads.o...ic.php?f=10&t=25126

Just because encouraged to do so on these boards, why should I suddenly think I can time the market? That said, I am worried, it would be strange if I wasn't, but it is not just about the 'right' move now, it is about making the 'right' call after that... and after that... and after that...
8 users thanked Robin for this post.
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MarkSp
Posted: 23 January 2022 16:08:05(UTC)

Joined: 02/02/2020(UTC)
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Robin;204768 wrote:
I am really interested in the tone of some of these messages - trying to time the market on the way down and on the way up is pretty much bound to fail - sure, if you hold on now, there will be some 'told you so' - in the Covid crash we saw some new forum members telling us loudly how obvious it all was and how moving to cash was the prime strategy, how on earth could no one else see that. We didn't hear from them about when they came back in or how they have done since. We also saw Keith Cobby sell SMT at pretty much the bottom - I respect Keith's honesty in this regard.

Is investing (rather than trading) not about having an asset allocation and holding on, perhaps rebalancing when thresholds are out? My PE got smacked last week - HGT and HVPE. They stand combined at about 14.5% of my portfolio. I added (3.5%) to HVPE (sale of SMT) just before they both moved down more heavily.

YTD I am about 4% down. One month I am -2.5%, three months I am marginally up, six months plus 3.5%.

The next weeks could be brutal. But they might not be. Reading these boards do I sell my 10% FS, do I sell HVPE and HGT after a week of fairly heavy loss? Or should I stick with my broad asset allocation? So I sell HVPE (say) - where does the money go? IUKD? For how long? Where next? Peter Walls recently said HVPE is one to hold for the next decade. Max King recently said buy. Article in last few days on Trustnet highlights HVPE as a good alternative pick right now. Who is right and who is wrong?

If I chop and change I am chasing returns - when would the precise point be to go hack into HVPE? I recently posted about Bob -

https://awealthofcommons...lds-worst-market-timer/

There is the Dalbar study.

There is this...
https://www.bogleheads.o...ic.php?f=10&t=25126

Just because encouraged to do so on these boards, why should I suddenly think I can time the market? That said, I am worried, it would be strange if I wasn't, but it is not just about the 'right' move now, it is about making the 'right' call after that... and after that... and after that...


There are a few schizophrenic "investors" on these boards.
Why bother with a portfolio and the thousands of posts on portfolio construction if at the first sign of a dip you are going to start day trading :)
5 users thanked MarkSp for this post.
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Monty Claret
Posted: 23 January 2022 16:37:05(UTC)

Joined: 24/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 294

Robin;204768 wrote:

Is investing (rather than trading) not about having an asset allocation and holding on, perhaps rebalancing when thresholds are out? My PE got smacked last week - HGT and HVPE. They stand combined at about 14.5% of my portfolio. I added (3.5%) to HVPE (sale of SMT) just before they both moved down more heavily.
.

The next weeks could be brutal. But they might not be. Reading these boards do I sell my 10% FS, do I sell HVPE and HGT after a week of fairly heavy loss? Or should I stick with my broad asset allocation? So I sell HVPE (say) - where does the money go? IUKD? For how long? Where next? Peter Walls recently said HVPE is one to hold for the next decade. Max King recently said buy. Article in last few days on Trustnet highlights HVPE as a good alternative pick right now. Who is right and who is wrong?


Just because encouraged to do so on these boards, why should I suddenly think I can time the market? That said, I am worried, it would be strange if I wasn't, but it is not just about the 'right' move now, it is about making the 'right' call after that... and after that... and after that...


HVPE has a Trustnet FE score of 148 and volatility of 20.12, this is not a low risk option.

I had lunch last weekend with the Chief Investment Officer for a PE house in London. A couple of interesting things came up, firstly valuation he expects cost of acquisition of a business is circa 10%. You buy for £100m, but many will "book it" at £110m, so what is the value? When I then questioned him regarding PE being bought by US universities, his answer was they are awash with cash and have a time scale of 100's of years.

I have decided to remain out of PE as I have neither the investment time horizon or risk!

PS: I did hold HVPE in March 2020
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 23 January 2022 16:38:00(UTC)

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

Very good points.
The thing about Bob is that he was in the accumulation phase. The decumulation phase is a little different and the bogleheads is a better read for that situation. I often think we don’t get enough recognition of the differences in forum discussions.
3 users thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 23 January 2022 16:41:06(UTC)

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
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There seems to be some here that take the view..

Stocks go up.... buy the momentum
Stocks go down.... buy the dip

It's a bit like that Bitcoin cartoon where no matter what the data is telling you, Bitcoin is going to go up.

If anyone believes prices will be lower next Friday then why on earth would you stay in the market? It seems to be driven by the complacent assumption that the bull market will go on forever, whereas we know from history there are periodic major crashes.

We know valuations are utterly mad on many companies, notably US ones, I just think it's time to draw stumps on my gains and then with a clear head and more restful nights, make a new plan. BUT that's what I need to do as I'm retired and live on investment profits. It may not be right for long termers.
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Mr Helpful
Posted: 23 January 2022 17:02:54(UTC)

Joined: 04/11/2016(UTC)
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ANDREW FOSTER;204780 wrote:


There seems to be some here that take the view..

Stocks go up.... buy the momentum
Stocks go down.... buy the dip

It's a bit like that Bitcoin cartoon where no matter what the data is telling you, Bitcoin is going to go up.

If anyone believes prices will be lower next Friday then why on earth would you stay in the market? It seems to be driven by the complacent assumption that the bull market will go on forever, whereas we know from history there are periodic major crashes.

We know valuations are utterly mad on many companies, notably US ones, I just think it's time to draw stumps on my gains and then with a clear head and more restful nights, make a new plan. BUT that's what I need to do as I'm retired and live on investment profits. It may not be right for long termers.


This is very much the dilemma presented to a 100% Stocks' investor.
A dangerous place indeed.

But we know ..............
Returns from portfolio businesses come from accumulating earnings and/or dividends.
The lower the share-price the higher those returns.

see also .........
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/whipsaw.asp

Those with a thoughtful balanced portfolio can ride out the fluctuations, rebalancing to advantage, without needing to try to guess the direction of future market movements.
Some may take things a stage further by progressively reducing risk as valuations expand.
5 users thanked Mr Helpful for this post.
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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 23 January 2022 17:19:44(UTC)

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
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Mr Helpful;204783 wrote:

But we know ..............
Returns from portfolio businesses come from accumulating earnings and/or dividends.
The lower the share-price the higher those returns.

.


But right now the equities taking the most major hammering are the ones with no earnings or dividends. How can these companies give a real return? There is nothing to accumulate.

Yet their market cap's have gone through the roof in some cases.

I am a believer in reversion to mean over time and that means sooner or later those P/E 500+ companies will come down to the P/E appropriate for their sector and earnings. The Nikola chart is a great example of this and there are plenty of others waiting behind the curve. Nikola, of course, hasn't sold a single vehicle AFAIK.

Many here did fantastically well on the BG funds (well done them!) and that has created a mirage that BG FM's are magicians rather than just very lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Luck is only useful if one capitalises on it, rather than waiting for it to run out.
Blunt Instrument
Posted: 23 January 2022 17:31:55(UTC)

Joined: 21/03/2020(UTC)
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Aminatidi;204739 wrote:

I think a bit of a plan is forming.


Picture a 55 year old lifetime alcoholic. The present state of their body will be a consequence of the *compounding effect* of their daily heavy-drinking - their destructive behaviour pattern - over several decades. If they look back, there'll probably be days/periods they recall where their drinking escapades had upside, giving them some good laughs and escapades at the time, but the relentless compounding of destructive behaviour will have ensured the overall long term effect is highly negative.

For investors, the foundation of any long term plan should be to embed within it good investing behaviour - while minimising destructive behaviour - so that over the lengthy time horizon of a portfolio this daily exercise of good practice can steadily compound into a satisfactory outcome. Along with keeping costs low, much of the rest of this good practice comes down to avoiding the myriad heuristic biases which can otherwise trip us up. Evolution didn't hone us to manage portfolios very well, and it turns out that much of what it did hone us for actually hinders our investing efforts. A reasonable plan should recognise this.

My other half has a reasonable plan: monthly drip into a main portfolio comprising ~70% low cost multi-asset fund, ~20% global equity fund, ~10% other equity fund. Trustnet says 169% over 10 years. She spends no time monitoring markets, predicting what'll happen next or worrying about this or that. Satisfactory returns, no effort, no scope for doing anything stupid. Spends her time earning money to feed into it, or doing more enjoyable stuff. A decent plan.

Looking at recent news, and at the price action of markets, it's clear to see that lots of investors have become worried about stuff...

Imagine now that my other half takes a knock on the head precipitating a complete change of her approach to investing in future. Her new self notes all this negative newsflow and market price action and she decides that markets are "surely" going to tank. So she gets up tomorrow morning and sells the lot. Imagine then that she's "right", and the market does indeed fall as she guessed it might and it's down 10%, 20% or some other amount in a month or two's time. Her inner voice will then surely be telling her: "You're a smart investor, Mrs Blunt, unlike those suckers who held on during a market fall that was 'obvious' to see was coming".

Confidence buoyed, she then has to make another prediction - another guess if you will - of what will happen next and adjust the portfolio again. She then needs to keep making predictions and guesses like this over the full remaining investment time horizon of the portfolio (a mere ~30 years more) such that at the end of that process all these regular predictions and guesses about the unknowable future that she'll have made will need to have compounded such that's she's decently ahead of her former self who wouldn't have done anything at all.

Realistically, I think the chances of her pulling that off and being materially ahead of her former self, who spent zero time and kept the market at a distance and never worried about it at all - are approximately ZERO. Or perhaps less ;)

And the worse part of it is: you only really discover if you are one of those rare investors who *can* exhibit persistent skill at the end of a long period of time once all the compounding has played out. By which time, if like nearly every other investor you don't actually posses persistent skill, or have "an edge", you've already probably ruined your long term returns compared to what you could've enjoyed with a better approach, and it's too late to ever remedy the damage already done.

=> Focus on practising daily good investment behaviour, and long term compounding of this discipline will deal with the rest.
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