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Relativity and Riches
Easyrider
Posted: 19 June 2022 10:15:54(UTC)
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How do you define being "well-offness" and/or "rich" and which benchmark do you use?
One has to distinguish between income and wealth (net positive financial assets).
Is someone "well off" if they are in the top decile of the UK income distribution? Or is it the top 20% or top 5% or perhaps 1%, who only inhabit the world of "well-offness"?
My perception is that people who are well paid and well up the UK income distribution tend to consider that they are not well-off in terms of income: it's the exceptionally highly paid, say the top 5% or top 1% they consider are well-off. Invariably it is those who are better-off than they are who have a high income.
In other words their perceptions are based on subjective criteria, not objective.
Also who are the wealthy? Is it someone, or a household, with net assets of £300k or £500k or £1m or £2m or £5m or £10m or £50m?
Also what is your benchmark? Do you compare your wealth position within the UK wealth distribution or do you take a wider perspective and consider your position in the global wealth distribution?
My understanding is that in the UK most people earn less than the mean income and have little in the way of financial assets.
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Mr Helpful on 19/06/2022(UTC)
Bulldog Drummond
Posted: 19 June 2022 10:41:03(UTC)
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I'm in the top 1% by income and assets but would by no means consider myself wealthy. Comfortably off, I suppose. An awful lot vanishes in taxes. If I travel on my own money it's in Economy. I have quite simple tastes, so I can accommodate those without worrying about money. I'd sooner spend a day playing a board-game with friends or a week walking in the hills and dales, or just reading a book with a glass of whisky, than staying in some ghastly luxury hotel in somewhere like Dubai and eating pretentious food. I doubt that my lifestyle would change greatly, or at all, if someone kindly gifted me a billion.

There have been times in my life when I was completely broke (apart from an inaccessible pension) and I wouldn't recommend that, but you survive.
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Ermintrade
Posted: 19 June 2022 10:45:23(UTC)
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The adjectives 'well-off', 'rich' and 'wealthy' are all so vague and subjective that it is, in my view, pointless to try to define them. I sometimes wonder how billionaires can possibly spend all that money. Just how many houses, boats and watches do you actually need. The really enlightened billionaires seem to want to give most of it to charities, eg Mackenzie Scott, the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos.
I saw a recent survey that showed that most people thought that an ideal lottery win would be about £8 million. The more you have the more unhappy you would seem to be - all that money to worry about, the security you need; who is going to try and rip you off; how will your friends and relatives start to treat you.
So beyond a certain level, surprisingly low, wealth does not bring happiness.
Regards
ermintrade
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Rob B
Posted: 19 June 2022 10:52:30(UTC)
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How to reply politely 😤.... Not sure I can but here goes!

I find this type of question self-absorbing and narcissistic. With poverty on the increase, people really starting to struggle to buy basic goods, a nasty war to the east, this line of thinking is an anathema for me.

The thought of benchmarking my wealth against the UK or global wealth distribution is repugnant. I have zero desire to define "well-offness" and/or "rich" in monetary terms. I will always struggle to see any benefit in doing so. For what it's worth I measure well "well-offness" and/or "rich" in terms of happiness, my own and family well-being.

Maybe I'm in the minority here and I must be missing something...
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Bulldog Drummond
Posted: 19 June 2022 10:52:47(UTC)
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Ermintrade;227834 wrote:
The adjectives 'well-off', 'rich' and 'wealthy' are all so vague and subjective that it is, in my view, pointless to try to define them.

Most commentary conflates income with wealth. These are not the same. Rather surprisingly, Denmark, where everyone has a pretty decent income, and scores high on happiness, is one of the most unequal countries in the world in terms of wealth. I was at a dinner last week with some friends worth a few hundred million. They do not consider themselves as rich.
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Easyrider on 19/06/2022(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 19 June 2022 11:31:30(UTC)
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It is tricky. I was looking at property prices the other day, you can see houses for £1Million now that people might just think of as a decent size family house someone in the top 30% ought to be able to live in - but I suppose only a much smaller fraction can afford. Other large houses go for multi-millions and you wonder who on earth can afford them and the running costs that go with them. About £6000 a square metre.

A net worth of £1 million only gets you income around average earnings.

The gap between the truly wealthy and the rest keeps getting wider. Some people get completely disproportionate rewards - it is hard to justify why someone should be a billionaire just because they wrote and performed a handful of pop songs, kicked a football around for 10 years, or read the news on TV. People that would have told jokes in pubs for £100 a night a generation ago, now pull in £10’s of millions. And everything is levered up. A ‘celeb’ will get £10k for appearing on TV, and a paid travelogue show where they take holidays of a lifetime worth £10’s thousands, and a book deal with a ghost writer. The glorious lucky few live in absolute luxury while almost everybody else has some level of financial worry.

We get expensive stuff thrust at us by non-stop advertising which doesn’t help. Nowadays every single product advertisement is set in a beautiful house put together by an interior designer and a luxury kitchen with immaculately dressed model actors. People in car ad’s drive themselves to fancy cocktail bars and restaurants where they meet perfect partners and gaze out over New York or Paris. Anyone driving a 5 year old car to stay at a B&B in Blackpool is made to feel like they live on the bread line and they should be doing better.
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Easyrider
Posted: 19 June 2022 13:11:42(UTC)
#6

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Rob B;227835 wrote:
How to reply politely 😤.... Not sure I can but here goes!

I find this type of question self-absorbing and narcissistic. With poverty on the increase, people really starting to struggle to buy basic goods, a nasty war to the east, this line of thinking is an anathema for me.

The thought of benchmarking my wealth against the UK or global wealth distribution is repugnant. I have zero desire to define "well-offness" and/or "rich" in monetary terms. I will always struggle to see any benefit in doing so. For what it's worth I measure well "well-offness" and/or "rich" in terms of happiness, my own and family well-being.

Maybe I'm in the minority here and I must be missing something...


......................................................................................................................................................................

I suspect people are interested in where "they fit in" but obviously not everyone. I wouldn't describe it as a "line of thinking" but more on the lines of objective, comparitive economic analysis.
It is perfectly reasonable to think, whatever the line of thinking IMO. Or at least it was when I went to university.
The Institute of Fiscal Studies obviously consider that many people are interested to know "where they fit in" on income levels.
Knowledge isn't a bad thing.
As far as I'm aware the IFS hasn't produced a similar reckoner on wealth.
https://ifs.org.uk/tools...ces/where_do_you_fit_in
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Rob B on 19/06/2022(UTC)
countrymum
Posted: 19 June 2022 13:18:01(UTC)
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Easyrider;227830 wrote:
My understanding is that in the UK most people earn less than the mean income and have little in the way of financial assets.

There is a thread on Mumsnet today where posters have shared some of their financial experiences and trust me it is a world apart from the types of conversations that pop up on these boards. The reality for many is not "Little in the way of financial assets", more endless stress, worry, anxiety and lack of control in trying to make ends meet, combined with debt from an uncontrolable imbalance of income Vs expenditure to cover a subsistence level of need.

I put myself in the "very privileged" bracket. I don't want for anything - I never have to go to the supermarket with a strict list and a calculator - if an unexpected expense pops up (kids school trip, vets bill, broken fridge) I have enough capacity to just pay for it outright - if I fancy a night out / new dress / flowers for the house I just buy them. My mortgage is minimal, my housing secure. Yes I could do without higher gas bills, but I'm not choosing between heat and food. Yes I could do without increased petrol costs, but I'm not running on fumes just to get to work. Touch wood we remain in good health and don't have to deal with the financial (as well as emotional) implications of long-term illness either of a physical or mental health nature.

I really hope the above doesn't come across as smug, I honestly don't mean it to. Just that I appreciate every day how fortunate i am with my lifestyle and, to go back to the original question, to me that makes me rich indeed.
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Ben's dad
Posted: 19 June 2022 13:42:51(UTC)
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Countrymum - Thank you for encapsulating my thoughts so precisely in your post.
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Bulldog Drummond
Posted: 19 June 2022 14:10:39(UTC)
#14

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'Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery. '
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