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chazza
Posted: 30 August 2022 11:47:25(UTC)
#170

Joined: 13/08/2010(UTC)
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Andrew Foster above:
Quote:
I'd be more interested in gravity storage than battery storage.

Cutting usage is indeed a thing, and we have seen no government advertising to advocate this.

We also have to disconnect renewable electricity price from gas. That's obviously not working in the public interest. Again no word on that from government.

Then getting the coal stations going again.


Gravity storage works if you have the hills, the water and the reservoirs to store it. England is short of all 3 - especially the latter; seems you can build a nuclear power station more quickly than a reservoir in England.

It might be better if Drax burned high quality coal than biomass derived from dodgy forest clearances abroad, but either way it cannot be more than a transitional operation until nukes / renewables can pick up the slack.
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2 users thanked chazza for this post.
Tim D on 30/08/2022(UTC), Martina on 30/08/2022(UTC)
bédé
Posted: 30 August 2022 13:45:14(UTC)
#157

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
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Tim D;236569 wrote:
[quote=bédé;236566]Always thought that way of measuring calories was suspect. Do you know of any particular foodstuffs where the numbers are wildly out

I suppose air combustion should at least yield reproducible results. But what'd be a better, more accurate way of doing it?


Sorbitol and Glucose. I'll go away and look for the figures.

.........................................................

Info found quickly:

Glucosse usually 100% metabolised, so combustion should yield equal results. Sorbitol is very similar to Glucose, just a small tweak that makes the metabolism less rapid. Tooth friendly, OK for diabetics.

Dietary carbohydrates, which are absorbed as hexose, (glucose, fructose) have a caloric value of 3.9 kcal/g (16.3 kJ/g), and their cellular metabolism produces approximately 38 mol ATP/mol.

Sorbitol is referred to as a nutritive sweetener because it provides dietary energy: 2.6 kilocalories (11 kilojoules) per gram versus the average 4 kilocalories (17 kilojoules) for carbohydrates.
..............................................................

I believe the EU food additives reulations allow manufacturrers to count sorbitol as 2 kcal/g. It varies from person to person. Regular users can become acclimatised to sorbitol intake, and can metabolise it more completely.
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Tim D on 30/08/2022(UTC)
Sara G
Posted: 30 August 2022 13:51:14(UTC)
#169

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4,050
Peter59;236592 wrote:
A 30min FT discussion about some points raised in this thread including decoupling the gas price from electric:

https://www.ft.com/video...&playlist-offset=10

"Net Zero won`t change the way we live", for the link-averse.

@AF Cutting usage is indeed a thing, and we have seen no government advertising to advocate this.
Won`t high prices achieve this anyway and do we really need a nanny state to tell us this!!


Thanks for flagging this, Peter. It's well worth 28 minutes of anyone's time in my view. Refreshingly optimistic and balanced assessment - makes a change from the often misanthropic doom-ranting we are bombarded with elsewhere. I especially agree with the arguments around the moral case for allowing the developing world to achieve better living standards The general consensus among the experts interviewed seems to be that there are bound to be adjustments to our lifestyles, but they don't necessarily have to be painful. And, as always, it all comes down to incentives, ideally positive ones, rather than the unintended consequences of an energy price shock.
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Sara G
Posted: 30 August 2022 13:54:34(UTC)
#158

Joined: 07/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4,050
bédé;236611 wrote:
Tim D;236569 wrote:
[quote=bédé;236566]Always thought that way of measuring calories was suspect. Do you know of any particular foodstuffs where the numbers are wildly out

I suppose air combustion should at least yield reproducible results. But what'd be a better, more accurate way of doing it?


Sorbitol and Glucose. I'll go away and look for the figures.

Glucosse usually 100% metabolised, so combustion should yield equal results. Sorbitol is very similar to Glucose, just a small tweak that makes the metabolism less rapid. Tooth friendly, OK for diabetics.


Dietary carbohydrates, which are absorbed as hexose, (glucose, fructose) have a caloric value of 3.9 kcal/g (16.3 kJ/g), and their cellular metabolism produces approximately 38 mol ATP/mol.


I recall reading somewhere that the way calories in alcohol are measured is deeply flawed. It is treated the same as sugar, but actually doesn't have the same effect, except possibly in the case of beer due to the higher level of carbohydrates.
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bédé
Posted: 30 August 2022 14:10:06(UTC)
#159

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
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Sara G;236614 wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that the way calories in alcohol are measured is deeply flawed. It is treated the same as sugar, but actually doesn't have the same effect, except possibly in the case of beer due to the higher level of carbohydrates.

I started to look for the catorific value of ethanol. But got bogged down in calorific value compared to gasoline. I gave up. But a liquid drink like whisky, wine or beer is quite a complicated matter.
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Sara G on 30/08/2022(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 30 August 2022 14:39:01(UTC)
#171

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,127
chazza;236597 wrote:
Andrew Foster above:
Quote:
I'd be more interested in gravity storage than battery storage.

Cutting usage is indeed a thing, and we have seen no government advertising to advocate this.

We also have to disconnect renewable electricity price from gas. That's obviously not working in the public interest. Again no word on that from government.

Then getting the coal stations going again.


Gravity storage works if you have the hills, the water and the reservoirs to store it. England is short of all 3 - especially the latter; seems you can build a nuclear power station more quickly than a reservoir in England.



That's not gravity storage, that's pumped storage.

Gravity storage is having a huge block of concrete lifting up and down rather like the old gasometers. No rare earths needed. Unlimited life. No end of life disposal. Cheap.

https://heindl-energy.com/

But we do also have plenty of scope for pumped storage, in the mould of the Dinorwic one. Problem there is it's mostly in National parks. ideally you need a lake at the top an the bottom.

We have huge potential also for Hydro, you only need to look at the spillways of most reservoirs to see it. Problem is it's intermittent and drinking water needs to take precedence.
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Tug Boat
Posted: 31 August 2022 17:22:15(UTC)
#172

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,022

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Just signed up for solar and battery storage.

Hated solar cells for yonks as you can’t store the energy. Batteries are cheaper now.
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3 users thanked Tug Boat for this post.
Keith Cobby on 31/08/2022(UTC), Tim D on 31/08/2022(UTC), Martina on 01/09/2022(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 31 August 2022 18:19:55(UTC)
#173

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,127
Tug Boat;236789 wrote:
Just signed up for solar and battery storage.

Hated solar cells for yonks as you can’t store the energy. Batteries are cheaper now.


On-grid or off-grid?


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You have to change your life
Posted: 31 August 2022 19:14:36(UTC)
#174

Joined: 17/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 2,194
"The current market design offers Russia, for example, a virtual field of action for destructive market manipulation," Nina Scheer, parliamentary energy spokeswoman of the Social Democrats, the leading party in the Berlin coalition, wrote in the Handelsblatt business daily on Tuesday.


Looks as if the summit in nine days' time may see Europe fight back against the current Russian energy blackmail. I would imagine the EU has new found confidence in sharing current gas reserves and is prepared to offer a united front in the price it is prepared to pay for any extra. Long term, plans to wean from dependence on outside energy accelerate. Gas prices already tumbling in advance, which is great to see.

Just shows how acting together can strengthen a bargaining hand, eh?
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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 31 August 2022 20:18:05(UTC)
#175

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,127
You have to change your life;236796 wrote:
"The current market design offers Russia, for example, a virtual field of action for destructive market manipulation," Nina Scheer, parliamentary energy spokeswoman of the Social Democrats, the leading party in the Berlin coalition, wrote in the Handelsblatt business daily on Tuesday.


Looks as if the summit in nine days' time may see Europe fight back against the current Russian energy blackmail. I would imagine the EU has new found confidence in sharing current gas reserves and is prepared to offer a united front in the price it is prepared to pay for any extra. Long term, plans to wean from dependence on outside energy accelerate. Gas prices already tumbling in advance, which is great to see.

Just shows how acting together can strengthen a bargaining hand, eh?


We will have to see..

The EU has demonstrated a singular lack of acting together so far, with the usual EU tom-foolery of deals, opt-outs and exceptions with the usual goal of presenting some mish-mash as a united front.

Places like Hungary and Norway are going for the "I'm alright, Jack" approach, while Poland, taking the hardline stance of refusing to pay for gas in Rubles, now expects others to do exactly that in order to supply it.

Bravo, Europe....

Still, looking on the bright side, we can all blame the Germans ;-)
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