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A grown-up, dispassionate assessment of Brexit
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Jonathan Friend
Posted: 12 February 2023 16:35:16(UTC)
#893

Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 1,282

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Was thanked: 3047 time(s) in 957 post(s)
Better to let dialogue take place.

Opinions and ideas will be subjected to testing and opposing views in a transparent fashion.

Refinement can occur, people can learn.

Cover ups and silencing damage this healthy process and promote ignorance.

It won't be for everyone. Some people enjoy debate, others do not. Nobody is obliged to read, watch or listen to discussion that offends them.
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1 user thanked Jonathan Friend for this post.
Tim D on 12/02/2023(UTC)
Jimmy Page
Posted: 12 February 2023 16:51:36(UTC)
#894

Joined: 11/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 1,686

Thanks: 6527 times
Was thanked: 3960 time(s) in 1251 post(s)
Jonathan Friend;257367 wrote:
Better to let dialogue take place.

Opinions and ideas will be subjected to testing and opposing views in a transparent fashion.

Refinement can occur, people can learn.

Cover ups and silencing damage this healthy process and promote ignorance.

It won't be for everyone. Some people enjoy debate, others do not. Nobody is obliged to read, watch or listen to discussion that offends them.

It's a free Country, and it's not offensive.
But it's not debate either - primarily juvenile and repetitive bellowing from open mouths and closed minds.

I do keep getting sucked in by some of the wilfully false 'cos brexit' stuff, the complete lack of 'losers consent', and the likes of proclaiming Cameron should be strung up, but I really shouldn't.
It is indeed embarrassing.
Clearly too much time on my hands so a good prod to go and find something more constructive to do with it!
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2 users thanked Jimmy Page for this post.
Thrugelmir on 12/02/2023(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 12/02/2023(UTC)
Jonathan Friend
Posted: 12 February 2023 17:07:37(UTC)
#895

Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 1,282

Thanks: 1229 times
Was thanked: 3047 time(s) in 957 post(s)
Jimmy Page;257370 wrote:
Jonathan Friend;257367 wrote:
Better to let dialogue take place.

Opinions and ideas will be subjected to testing and opposing views in a transparent fashion.

Refinement can occur, people can learn.

Cover ups and silencing damage this healthy process and promote ignorance.

It won't be for everyone. Some people enjoy debate, others do not. Nobody is obliged to read, watch or listen to discussion that offends them.

It's a free Country, and it's not offensive.
But it's not debate either - primarily juvenile and repetitive bellowing from open mouths and closed minds.

I do keep getting sucked in by some of the wilfully false 'cos brexit' stuff, the complete lack of 'losers consent', and the likes of proclaiming Cameron should be strung up, but I really shouldn't.
It is indeed embarrassing.
Clearly too much time on my hands so a good prod to go and find something more constructive to do with it!


Fair enough. I know the feeling.
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1 user thanked Jonathan Friend for this post.
Jimmy Page on 12/02/2023(UTC)
Tug Boat
Posted: 12 February 2023 17:36:05(UTC)
#896

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,018
Keep the debate, but make it grownup and dispassionate. Reasoned argument and facts…is it possible?
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Tim D
Posted: 12 February 2023 18:00:45(UTC)
#874

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883
Jonathan Friend;257342 wrote:
How is Farage a demagogue?


On a whim, I asked chatGPT exactly that:
chatGPT
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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 12 February 2023 18:12:05(UTC)
#876

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,120
Tim D;257380 wrote:
Jonathan Friend;257342 wrote:
How is Farage a demagogue?


On a whim, I asked chatGPT exactly that:



Very interesting result from a technical point of view and an impressive, coherent response. But I have questions.

How did it know you meant Nigel Farage? It wasn't specified in your question. It's a pretty big assumption.

But I'm curious now on a purely technical level what it would say if asked "How is Farage a great leader"?

Just interested in evidence of political bias on chatGPT.
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Jonathan Friend
Posted: 12 February 2023 18:35:24(UTC)
#875

Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
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Tim D;257380 wrote:
Jonathan Friend;257342 wrote:
How is Farage a demagogue?


On a whim, I asked chatGPT exactly that:
chatGPT


First line describes practically every politician.

Answer otherwise seems vague and lacking in any concrete examples. Lots of "critics describe..." and "he is described as..." type wording, but no actual examples of things he has said and why it is considered that those statements constitute demagoguery.

I'm guessing it is drawing on internet sources which will be full of piffle churned out by political opponents.

Following Andrew's queries about bias, I'd like to see how this thing answers the same question in relation to the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot, because I can think of examples off the top of my head of how those two would meet the stated definition of demagogue.

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ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 12 February 2023 19:33:23(UTC)
#897

Joined: 23/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8,120

Maybe best to migrate this line to the chatGPT thread... ?
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Tim D
Posted: 12 February 2023 23:21:34(UTC)
#898

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883
And here we go with the hardliners' backlash against the "secret cross-party Brexit damage-limitation summit"...

https://www.dailymail.co...pe-Tory-warns-plot.html

Opens:
Quote:
Secret plan to unravel Brexit: Lord Frost warns secret summit on 'making relations with the EU better' is further evidence of plot to unravel exit deals and have UK 'stay shadowing Brussels'

Lord Frost last night warned of a plot to undermine Brexit after leading Remainers held a secret summit on EU relations.

The Tory peer said the gathering of prominent politicians, business chiefs and ex-civil servants showed a will to unravel the deal he helped negotiate with Brussels. And in a clear attack on the Government, he said ministers did not need to fix Brexit but rather implement it in full – instead of raising taxes.


🍿 🍿 🍿

Update: Redwood joins the pile-on: https://www.theguardian....ss-rapprochement-with-eu
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Robert D
Posted: 13 February 2023 01:00:26(UTC)
#866

Joined: 06/11/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,479
Jonathan Friend;257346 wrote:

As usual, key questions such as: is the government's refugee/illegal immigrant dispersal strategy a good one? Why are so many of the arrivals young men? And: where are we going with this?
.



Where indeed? The riot by far-right groups in Knowsley and the rhetoric against migrants, supported disgracefully by the likes of Farage and Braverman, might give you a clue.

As one of the resident Gammons and one of the 30% or so minority in the UK population who are vehemently opposed to rejoining the EU, I would not say you were racist in voting for Brexit, but of course if you were racist, you did

The idea that a small country off the north-west coast of Europe might thrive on its own in a complicated and increasingly fractured and dangerous world is to peddle a falsehood, which is what the Brexit campaign always did.

It will be difficult and will take years but the important thing is that process of rejoining the EU needs to start. It's good to see Gove and Lammy are talking about this
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