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Budget - Everyone says that they won't but have they said they will?
Newbie
Posted: 13 September 2024 12:40:06(UTC)
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Robert D;318962 wrote:
Newbie;318944 wrote:


Can we have a comment ?



Yes, I will reply because unlike others you seem a more considered poster. "Comrade" - really? It's so childish. It's hard not to agree with Chris Giles that UK pensions enjoy over-generous tax breaks and that the system is in urgent need of reform. Like on here there are the usual self-interested comments section below the FT article, but more interesting are the comments from people in other countries who are bewildered frankly that such a system exists. .


That is all well

But what about

1) The true inequity, however, is different. What the statistic omits is the more relevant fact that higher and top-rate taxpayers also paid 69 per cent of income tax in 2022-23.

2) In other words, 14% of the adult population (the "top earners") pay 69% of all income tax.

3) As a few others have implied above, this seems like a very dodgy pyramid structure. When some of the 14% get asked to pay even more because they have the "broadest shoulders" the system could easily collapse, e.g. what happens when we get to, say, 10% of the population paying 90% of the tax?

Do these outcomes look fair ?
If that 14% then, for some reason or rather goes down to say 10%, will them paying 90% of the tax intake be reasonable or sustainable ?

Surely the better solution is to get more people working and saving for their own future and be less of a burden to to the state in the future (as well as now).

Sure there are people who have genuine reasons for being unable to work but at the moment, at one end you have a situation where it pays better to not be working as the state will provide, the coupled with that an emerging situation where, it pays better not to be earning too much as the state would confiscate more of it if I go over say £99k.

Both this must surely lead to lower economic output - followed by lower financial intake/output via other taxes realised from extra spending. This vicious circle starts heading downwards further and further no.

I agree that that the pensions rebate is too generous, but there has to be a long term structural change as opposed to simply taxing the rich higher and higher which is akin to sticking a band aid in a dam cracking all over the place.

One thing that distorts the issues the quoting of individual cases such as Sunak. Surely it is better and more relevant to look at the wider picture and long term impact. Taking on individual cases simply leads to tit for tat with no real solutions.
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jonathan rowe
Posted: 13 September 2024 14:06:24(UTC)
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Robert D;318962 wrote:
Newbie;318944 wrote:


Can we have a comment ?



Yes, I will reply because unlike others you seem a more considered poster. "Comrade" - really? It's so childish. It's hard not to agree with Chris Giles that UK pensions enjoy over-generous tax breaks and that the system is in urgent need of reform. Like on here there are the usual self-interested comments section below the FT article, but more interesting are the comments from people in other countries who are bewildered frankly that such a system exists. .



For a lot of older career people, the "tax break" (we're actually deferring most of the tax til later) is what keeps us working full time instead of going part time or taking an earlier retirement

Remove these breaks and watch the NHS collapse as senior consultants go part time



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Rookie Investor
Posted: 13 September 2024 14:16:38(UTC)
#63

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Sara G;318965 wrote:
Rookie Investor;318957 wrote:
I am a basic rate "taxpayer" with a 7-figure portfolio and a BTL and as an early retiree, my tax contribution with the exception of VAT and CT, will be negligible. Likely to be even following the budget and for the foreseeable future. Hoping it remains like that for decades.


I don't understand how that is possible with a pf that large. Mine is much smaller and I am never likely to be in that position. But in any case, I am happy to pay tax as my contribution to public services (much as they may warrant reform). I just don't want to find my standard of living has fallen because the goalposts have been moved (it's bad enough already with fiscal drag and inflation).


Just under £500k in ISAs, mostly stocks but also some cash ISA - obviously all tax free.

The remainder is partly in low coupon gilts attracting minimal tax on interest that is beyond the £1k allowance I have. The rest in investments in a GIA account on which dividends are just over £500 so again minimal tax to pay on this and the portfolio is buy and hold so no CGT to pay.

My BTL provides income that after expenses and mortgage tax credit, the tax is precisely 0.

Last year tax year was the most I had to pay at just over £200. This year it'll be around £100. Following year probably and hopefully a big fat 0.

After many years working away and paying taxes, it is refreshing not to have to burden myself to contribute much. Any spending will be taken from BTL income and a mix of ISAs and GIA such that CGT tax will still be negligible or 0.

I will have to start paying tax once I inherit my share of a commercial property, which hopefully won't be for a long time, and then when state pension is payable (which might not happen due to potential means testing).

I am early 40s so hopefully few decades before paying meaningful taxes.

Robert D - don't shoot me I haven't done anything wrong, in fact I have gone above and beyond in my contributions to this country unlike those you think are being screwed over.

EDIT - forgot to mention I have a pension pot worth a few hundred thousand which is obviously CGT/div tax free, but will be taxable when I withdraw in 15 years time. In any case tax free currently.
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Newbie
Posted: 13 September 2024 14:45:39(UTC)
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Rookie Investor;318972 wrote:
Robert D - don't shoot me I haven't done anything wrong, in fact I have gone above and beyond in my contributions to this country unlike those you think are being screwed over.

If the likes of Rayner, Reeves and co can get away with such phrases when acquiring and. making monies from RTB's and claiming tax payer monies to fund second home expenses, then you should be fine. However don't put your head above the parapet yet.
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Rookie Investor
Posted: 13 September 2024 14:52:02(UTC)
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Newbie;318974 wrote:
Rookie Investor;318972 wrote:
Robert D - don't shoot me I haven't done anything wrong, in fact I have gone above and beyond in my contributions to this country unlike those you think are being screwed over.

If the likes of Rayner, Reeves and co can get away with such phrases when acquiring and. making monies from RTB's and claiming tax payer monies to fund second home expenses, then you should be fine. However don't put your head above the parapet yet.


Don't think they can really touch me. I am small fry to them.
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Newbie on 13/09/2024(UTC)
Old Jock
Posted: 13 September 2024 15:29:09(UTC)
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Given the shrinking tax base problem I described above, I can only really see 3 options:
1. Cut public spending.
2. Economic Growth.
3. Spread the tax base by taxing the "poor" harder (and by "poor" I probably mean anyone paying basic rate tax, which I know sounds bizarre).

I personally don't like the look of no. 3, so I'm leaning towards a mix of 1 and 2.

Public spending strikes me as far too high, and there seems very little appetite to put the brakes on public sector pay, or the benefits bill. Other than the cuts to WFA, which is probably dwarfed by the rest, and in any case feels like a bad place to start.

Economic growth always seems the most "painless" route, but that involves creating a spirit of entrepreneurship, innovation, and encouragement of private capital to get ploughed into existing UK companies (plus UK arms of foreign companies), and start-ups. If you discourage that capital for ideological reasons then a lot of it is not going to materialise.

As investors I think we sometimes lose sight of the role of our capital, but in essence what we're doing by buying shares and trading them with one another is recycling capital around the economy to support company risk-taking and expansion plans. We hope to earn a return on this capital (obviously) but the socialists always miss two points - (1) we're exposing the capital to risk (because that's the nature of running a business for shareholders), (2) it does have a societal purpose because it's what grows economies, provides jobs, and pays for public services. But you can't have any of that unless you ideologically accept that some investors will end up making a lot of money, which is where socialists come unstuck and try and run the economy themselves, like the nonsense of GB Energy (does anyone actually know what this is yet, as it sounds to me like some badly thought-out hybrid between a subsidy mechanism and an ill-run taxpayer funded VCT), or the National Wealth Fund (National Debt Fund?), another excuse for socialists to pour taxpayer's money down the drain when all that's needed is to incentivise the private sector and let them get on with it.

Along with the ideological campaign to destroy what's left of the North Sea (like not defending the Rosebank and Jackdaw licences) the current government are I think more likely to cause a recession rather than kick-start growth. The Germans are quickly finding out what the loss of access to cheap fossil fuel does to your industry, but at least their misfortune was caused by a war, not self-inflicted.

All of which I think means we're back to increased taxes in the forthcoming budget and the collapsing pyramid model of my earlier post, at least for the next 5 years.

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Newbie
Posted: 13 September 2024 15:56:11(UTC)
#68

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I listened to part of the speech by KS re the NHS and whilst I agree that throwing monies into the beast is unlikely to solve the issues, there was a tiny part of me that was sensing that inadvertently this lot may push further by a margin the already started, privatisation of the wonderful national gem in much the same way they really messed up the pensions for which they blame the lot just thrown out.

The talk of digitising the NHS is all good, but all I see is thousand of separate IT sub-contractors each putting their own system in and then at the end no system talks to each other, so either a lifelong maintenance contract on ridiculous ever increasing fees, or a new contractor coming in and saying the old one was shite and they put their own one in - then its rinse and repeat. The solution may have been to have a centralised IT system with directly employed in house teams and systems - but there is no monies for that.

There seems to be a lot of grand plans mentioned (nothing new for politicians) with no real ideas about how to implement them in any viable manner - rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic was never going to stop it sinking. Similarly taking from Paul and giving to Peter is also unlikely to save the situation we are in.

What does not help is that to every tricky question the modus-operandi seems to be along the lines of
- 22bn black hole
- we will not rule it out.
- braod shoulders need to carry the burden
- we have a fully costed plan (yet this morning it was announced that no impact assessment was done)
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Sara G
Posted: 13 September 2024 17:20:17(UTC)
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To Old Jock's 3 options, I would add a 4th - borrowing. I suspect that we will get substantially more of it alongside tax rises over the next few years, since growth is unlikely to come to the rescue quickly enough (or at all?), and cutting spending will end up in the 'too difficult' pile. Many will be unconcerned about increased levels of debt if it means avoiding austerity, but it does mean that the purchasers of that debt will need to be persuaded that it's more attractive than other options available to them.
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Newbie
Posted: 13 September 2024 17:27:26(UTC)
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Sara G;318993 wrote:
To Old Jock's 3 options, I would add a 4th - borrowing. I suspect that we will get substantially more of it alongside tax rises over the next few years, since growth is unlikely to come to the rescue quickly enough (or at all?), and cutting spending will end up in the 'too difficult' pile. Many will be unconcerned about increased levels of debt if it means avoiding austerity, but it does mean that the purchasers of that debt will need to be persuaded that it's more attractive than other options available to[/u[u]] them.

Pension funds.
I just hope that they do not do what the Polish Government did - raid private pensions leading to a lower reporting of National Debt.

This will allow them to borrow more and paint a more rosier picture

https://pensionsandsavin...-raiding-pensions-again/
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Blunt Instrument
Posted: 14 September 2024 10:02:56(UTC)
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Rookie Investor;318972 wrote:

Robert D - don't shoot me I haven't done anything wrong, in fact I have gone above and beyond in my contributions to this country unlike those you think are being screwed over.


Some time ago now, there was one year where I estimated that I paid more in tax than my (albeit it lowly paid) dad had paid throughout his whole working life. Tends to concentrate your mind a little and wonder exactly where your money's going...

More so if, like me, you once happened to be seconded to a, err, "key Government department renowned for appalling inefficiency", to help their bigwigs understand why their projects were costing (or being quoted at) over 2-orders of magnitude more (I kid you not!) than the identikit private-sector projects that we were successfully delivering. You could not make up the mind-blowingly wasteful nonsense observed, hence the absurd costs, nor the resolute resistance by most to change. Anecdotes and reports indicate that things have only gone further downhill since my audit... 🤦

I've little doubt that many of the state's functions could be delivered for a fraction of their current cost, with vast numbers of staff freed up for productive roles that actually generate tax revenues rather than just soak them up, but it'd require substantially dismantling all these bureaucracies, which have evolved through time to now largely serve the needs of the insiders rather than the public, re-engineering them from the ground-up as modern, lean entities.

The tragedy today is that the new Government probably have the political cover to begin this mammoth exercise, but have insufficient will to upset their public sector / union client voters, no real-world insight or experience to bring to bear, and are in any case hamstrung by ideology, preventing pragmatic solutions.

The idea of this current lot that the tax thumbscrews will simply be turned even more on the narrowing cohort who are already paying for everything is just ridiculous. They might as well be running 24hr adverts telling successful people to back right off, kick back, cut their hours, tickover rather than grow, retire early, focus resolutely on the tax tail vs the dog, clear off elsewhere, etc etc etc.

"Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome". Utter donkeys.
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