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Are pensions a really good deal?
Robin Stone
Posted: 15 August 2013 14:29:50(UTC)
#1

Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
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Are these maths right? Should I be maxing pension once my isa is full?

Assume you are higher rate tax payer of 40% just before retirement and have 100 pound to invest.

Scenario 1. Big pension already(flexible drawdown)
100 avc is put in tax free
25 pound tax free can be taken at retirement out of this pot
If you have 20k of income you can use flexible drawdown which will have 20 percent tax rate up to 40k/annum. Value 80%x75= 60 pound if you stay in this limit
Ie 85 value total

Alternative is to take 60 pound out after tax.
Ie 41% better off with pension when considering the avc as a marginal increase.

Scenario 2 smaller pension(annuity)
If you havent got a big enough pension pot ie before 20k and assuming forced to buy an annuity

Still get 25 pound tax free
The £75 becomes worth £3/year after tax (which sounds rubbish and is at a low) calc here is 5%x80%x75
However taking it now you pay tax and your £60 will only offer you 1 pound a year equivalent (safe 2 percent bank interest but will also be taxed but clearly you can spend the 60 so flexibility is useful.)
The annuity catches up if you live for more than 12 years(the 25 pounds tax free means only 35 to close).

Scenario 3 not at retirement
Key other advantage with the pension it's able to grow tax free and the 40% also grows and contributes because the tax comes when you are taking a pension rather than now.
So if I invest both in shares with 5% dividend for 10 years
My 60 pound income becomes 81 due to higher rate tax(assuming isa is full)
My 100 pound avc becomes worth 155. So gains are 2.6x as much in the pension.
Plus capital gains isn't an issue. Getting access to the gain may incur tax but this is likely to be at a lower rate so dropping 20% off this becomes 124 still a 53% gain.

If this is right why shouldn't I funnel all my money in(40k cap is going to be tricky to hit)?

Alan Selwood
Posted: 15 August 2013 16:25:00(UTC)
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The pension fund does not 'grow tax-free' as you assert, because since Gordon Brown started meddling, the dividends suffer deduction at source of advanced corporation tax, just as they do in an ISA.

I agree that you are not liable for personal rates of income tax on the dividends while they are in a pension fund, but they are not liable in an ISA either.

As for the rest of the calculations, I have not checked these. However, I would suggest that you also need to give some weighting to the fact that in an ISA you can take the whole lot out as tax-free cash at any time and are not caught up at all in the 'swindle' of annuity rates.
2 users thanked Alan Selwood for this post.
Ron M on 16/08/2013(UTC), Briesmith on 27/01/2014(UTC)
chazza
Posted: 16 August 2013 08:41:07(UTC)
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Robin
your calculations appear to be right. Alan is right that UK share divs are taxed at 10% even in ISA / SIPP, BUT bonds, bond funds and some overseas domiciled collective investments (e.g., AIF and UEM) do NOT have tax deducted at source, so escape the 10%.
The attractions of pensions are much as your describe, but my order of priorities would be:
1. ISA, 2. SIPP, 3 VCT (for taxfree income).
But I would not be so keen on SIPP if I thought I should be obliged to take 75% of fund in form of an annuity. But, as you say, if you have over £20k of other income, you can opt for flexible drawdown.
2 users thanked chazza for this post.
Robin Stone on 16/08/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 19/08/2013(UTC)
Alan Selwood
Posted: 16 August 2013 16:43:06(UTC)
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One other approach where the ISA opportunities have been fully used is to buy a very low-yielding investment trust or unit trust/OEIC and hold it throughout your lifetime - there is no CGT on death, and if the fund grows reasonably well, the income tax will have been fairly minimal and the annual CGT allowance may permit you to take capital gains as 'income' - and you don't get the bugbear of the annuity rates, risk of loss of capital to the annuity provider on death after the guaranteed period, or lock yourself into annuity rates which might later look even poorer than they do now compared with other alternatives.

If you do this, you're probably doing exactly what the directors of Personal Assets Trust are doing with their own investments in that investment trust.

If you have enough other income to be eligible for phased drawdown, you shouldn't be fretting that your capital may run out from this non-ISA investment fund approach.

As for VCTs, if you can buy something like Baronsmead VCT at a good discount, the payments from it (mainly from their capital profits achieved!) as dividends may be worth considering as a long-term venture, but don't expect to make a capital killing.
4 users thanked Alan Selwood for this post.
Robin Stone on 16/08/2013(UTC), Guest on 16/08/2013(UTC), FAIR DEAL on 18/08/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 19/08/2013(UTC)
Rob Walker
Posted: 17 August 2013 08:30:08(UTC)
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Joined: 31/03/2009(UTC)
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Regardless of pension pot, the age for being 'forced' to buy an annuity has been raised (at 75 now, I think) and for anyone with a SIPP who is 65 today, I suspect the rules will be relaxed even more before the 75th birthday is reached. If I'm wrong on the age limit, let me know, someone.
Robin Stone
Posted: 18 August 2013 09:31:51(UTC)
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Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
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If the scenario where tax relief is capped at basic rate on pensions or 30% which was mooted by a think tank, which I think will happen at some point. My other assumption based on these changes is it won't go retrospective.

In this scenario "over-investing" now ie aiming for 30k+ and then reining back when it happens/ or if it doesn't can still rein back later. Would this be sensible? Alternative is low/no yield investment trusts
chazza
Posted: 18 August 2013 09:46:22(UTC)
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I would not invest in a pension in anticipation of a new tax regime that may or may not ever be introduced. I would use ISAs to the max., and I would not 'over-invest' in a pension now if that means any of your investment will attract tax relief at anything less than 40%. After all, the tax treatment of pension income may also change (I think the same think tank advocated reducing or abolishing the tax-free lump sum).
As ever, do not make investment decisions solely or mainly on the basis of their apparent tax advantages. Alan's suggestion of letting low / no-icome growth investments build up unrealised capital gains would certainly be attractive if CGT rates were to rise above their present rates.
Malcolm
Posted: 18 August 2013 11:28:52(UTC)
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This paper proposes to cut the lifetime limit on tax-relieved pension savings from £1.25 million to £1 million, so don't expect pension tax to remain unchanged.
http://www.actuarialpost...ons-tax-relief-5270.htm
Also
http://www.pensionspolic...=12&publication=347
Tax relief offers important advantages to pension savers, but does little to encourage pension saving, particularly among low and medium earners.

I expect that large ISA pots may also be looked upon by tax raisers.

As for age 75, there is no longer any annuity or other compulsion. HMRC and the legislation is specific:-

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/m...sm09103520.htm#IDAABVLG

Is there an upper age limit for starting a drawdown pension?
[s165 Pension Rule 6]

No.
Can I have a tax free lump sum when I start to go into drawdown pension?
Yes. This type of lump sum is called a pension commencement lump sum.


Pension v ISA.

Only a pension commencement lump sum = 25% of will be tax deferred. For the other 75% it makes no difference.

Assume a lump sum investment of £x, a tax rate of t% and an annual growth of g%, invested over n years.
ISA:
Invest £x, receive no tax rebate, pay no tax on withdrawal of wisa.

wisa = x * (1+g)^n

Pension:
Invest £x, receive tax rebate at t%, pay t% tax on withdrawal of wpens

wpens = x/(1-t) * (1+g)^n * (1-t) = x * (1+g)^n = wisa

If the basic rate of tax increases, you might even lose out.
3 users thanked Malcolm for this post.
hooligan on 18/08/2013(UTC), Robin Stone on 18/08/2013(UTC), Rob Walker on 19/08/2013(UTC)
Alan Selwood
Posted: 18 August 2013 14:02:39(UTC)
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In a financial climate where governments are hungry for funds to stop the economy's wheels falling off (because of earlier bad management and failure to rein in over-spending by the public at large, and financial shenanigans by certain financial firms), any assets that are fixed and not accessible because of restrictive rules can become sitting ducks. So any pension fund that you are not allowed to draw on because of 'rules', or any property that by its nature cannot be uprooted and taken abroad to a more benign tax climate (see Spain for how badly this can turn out), is at risk when official thievery becomes a problem.

At least with an ISA you might stand a chance of cashing in at any time, and might then have the chance to ship it abroad out of harm's way if they haven't suddenly reintroduced exchange controls.

Many people around the world now seem to favour having money in more than one jurisdiction, preferring those that are thought less likely to confiscate what is not legally theirs to take. Precious metals in a secure warehouse in Singapore, a bank account in, say, Uruguay, tax residence in neither, all these are ideas I've come across. I wouldn't be keen to buy a house in Spain at half the present depressed price, since that makes you liable for Spanish tax on your worldwide income at whatever rate the Spanish taxman thinks he can extract from you. Who is to say that other cash-strapped countries cannot change the rules whenever it suits them, and use your hard-earned money to cover up their own past mistakes?
1 user thanked Alan Selwood for this post.
Stephen Garsed on 19/08/2013(UTC)
Dr Jimbo
Posted: 18 August 2013 14:12:27(UTC)
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Never- ever - put money into a pension fund unless you are forced to. The whole model is fundamentally flawed and at the mercy of any Government that wants to change the rules in the future.

The GAD rates are idiotic and take no account of individual circumstances - I have grown my SIPP 3x more than I was allowed to take out in the last 8 months alone! And Ros Altman reported the 120% drawdown allowance may be cut in the next budget by at least 8% - an outrageous interference by HMRC.

Keep control of your money by not succumbing to tax relief saving/pension scams. An annuity is legal theft at current rates.

Use the ISA regime as long as it lasts and as soon as any whiff of change is heard take the lot out and place it overseas.

Do not trust the Government to keep faith on any promise associated with pensions, saving, tax rates. All Governments change the rules at will.

5 users thanked Dr Jimbo for this post.
banjofred on 18/08/2013(UTC), Stephen Garsed on 19/08/2013(UTC), Briesmith on 27/01/2014(UTC), magic beans on 27/01/2014(UTC), Guest on 27/02/2014(UTC)
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