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Interest Rates and Recession Question
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 30 October 2024 16:28:21(UTC)
#1

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

So normally if growth is stagnant and if recession comes a Central Bank will cut interest rates to stimulate the economy to restart growth.

However I am also reading a few things suggesting that national debt and lack of credibility over control of government spending is likely to make the markets reluctant to buy US and UK treasuries/gilts forcing down the price they fetch and effectively forcing up the interest rate. Of course forcing up interest rates in a recession must be a disaster. Looks like a bad credit doom loop for the country concerned.
(PS Doubly bad when the last government shut down swathes of businesses for no good reason under covid, forcing them to load up on huge quantities of debt just to survive.)

So what happens ? Can and will the BoE find itself unable to reduce interest rates in a looming recession because no-one wants to buy UK debt at lower rates ? Is this effectively already the case ?
Newbie
Posted: 30 October 2024 16:47:14(UTC)
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I fear/re-iterate (I have posted this before) prolonged inflation ( or for a while yet).

The budget today was more about giving handouts than growth IMO.
New government roles, more tax inspectors, handouts to schools to incorporate child minding facilities as well as extra funding to support SEN with out no mention of extra or better teaching (no doubt lead to schools to focus on where to get extra funding at the expense of quality education) - is just putting more monies and incentives into the long term state drain without any good long term country benefits.

So everyone will get more monies (good), but with fewer growth areas to spend on (bad), all leading to higher prices. Further aided by the increase in higher employer NI contributions and more regulatory reporting (thanks and to keep the new state posts active and be see to be doing something) costs which will need to be pushed down to the tills. Thus re-affirming higher prices - which is to be offset by the higher Min Wage.

Overall a budget based on an ideology and a tit for tat mentality without much substance.

The last lot could not get Boris to pay a £100 fine despite spending thousands in inquiries and legal costs. Now imagine what range of costs a new army of state civil servants will or actually need to achieve at all. They get paid and accrue benefits either way.

The Chancellor did make a point to shake of the doubt she was an economist in her opening gambit. However that is about it - all further clarification is to come in 8-10 year time (and if they get booted out then they can say they were on course but did not have the opportunity)

So I am not expecting inflation to go away anytime soon and expecting interest rates to stick around the 4% mark long term and inflation 3-4%. In other words managed redistribution.
4 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Guest on 30/10/2024(UTC), stephen_s on 30/10/2024(UTC), Law Man on 01/11/2024(UTC), Guest on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Stephen B.
Posted: 30 October 2024 20:03:17(UTC)
#3

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You're talking about two different things here. The BoE controls the day-to-day interest rates in the banking system, e.g. what you pay on a loan or get on a savings account. They can do that essentially freely. However the mandate is related to inflation, not growth per se, so it's more that a recession opens up a gap between supply and demand which tends to reduce inflation, hence interest rates can fall.

Gilts are typically issued to cover a long time period, up to 50 years, so conceptually they represent an estimate of what interest rates will be in the future, not just what they are now. There's also a risk premium because rates are more likely to be higher than expected than lower. If the government is trying to issue a large volume of gilts that will tend to push prices down and yields up, but that will usually be a fairly small effect because the year-on-year issuance is small compared to the total stock.
4 users thanked Stephen B. for this post.
Johan De Silva on 30/10/2024(UTC), L.P. on 31/10/2024(UTC), Law Man on 01/11/2024(UTC), Thrugelmir on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Johan De Silva
Posted: 30 October 2024 21:35:47(UTC)
#4

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Some parts of the economy, like the services sector, are still seeing significant price increases, but I think the war on inflation looks to be won.

Either way rates are still under pressure due to government spend needed. From what I understand, increased borrowing can lead to higher interest rates, especially if the market is skeptical about the government's fiscal policies. This I presume can create a challenging environment for central banks trying to stimulate the economy during a recession. What's remarkable is how financial education on this topic wasn't something I was ever privy to until I DIY. Everyone needs to know this stuff.
2 users thanked Johan De Silva for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 31/10/2024(UTC), Guest on 01/11/2024(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 31 October 2024 19:28:09(UTC)
#5

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

I don't think the suggestion that CB's can set rates irrespective of bond markets is really right is it. If the bond market decides say that the short gilt yield should be 5% then were the BoE to set UK interest rates at say 3% then that isn't going to work is it ? People will simply take money out of cash deposits earning 3% and use it to buy short bonds yielding 5%. So isn't it the case that the CB has to take account of the bond market when setting rates - it is not a free choice.

Therefore higher bond yields from market reaction to the loons and their budget means higher UK interest rates, which means lower growth or even recession, which means lower tax take, which means higher deficits, which means higher debt, which means higher bond yields...

https://www.zerohedge.com/market...y-druckenmiller-be-wrong
2 users thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Guest on 01/11/2024(UTC), Law Man on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 31 October 2024 19:55:51(UTC)
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NoMoreKickingCans;324128 wrote:
I don't think the suggestion that CB's can set rates irrespective of bond markets is really right is it. If the bond market decides say that the short gilt yield should be 5% then were the BoE to set UK interest rates at say 3% then that isn't going to work is it ? People will simply take money out of cash deposits earning 3% and use it to buy short bonds yielding 5%. So isn't it the case that the CB has to take account of the bond market when setting rates - it is not a free choice.


But the CBs can use QE or QT type interventions to manipulate the yield curve to where they want it to be e.g if they want rates to be 3% but gilts are sliding so yields are getting above that they can just get buying (printy printy!) so yields stay at 3%.

Where it gets interesting is if the "bond vigilantes" (ie a sceptical market) call the CB's bluff and it gets into a war over who's got most conviction they're right.
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L.P. on 31/10/2024(UTC)
ben ski
Posted: 31 October 2024 22:31:12(UTC)
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It's the problem Ray Dalio talked about in 2023. You've also got a huge scale of US debt refinancing, and a move away from dollar dependence by nations like China, who traditionally bought a lot of US debt. So with a lack of buyers, yields go up.

Or central banks buy the debt. And then you risk inflation.

So Dalio's keen on cash – not holding debt. I'm not sure where Dalio is on TIPS – even if he regards them as debt or real assets – but this is the kind of thing CGT, PNL and Ruffer are thinking a lot about... We're also looking at an equity risk premium at its lowest since the tech bubble. There's enough growth being priced in to justify it – but it's all a tightrope walk... I think CGT, PNL are designed for exactly this environment – of course it won't be until the wind gets taken out of equities that retail investors realise why it sometimes makes sense to diversify. Or cash – it is basically ultra-short duration. I suppose the issue with cash is you do have to make a sensible timing decision at some point – and retail investors are not typically good at that.

https://www.comerica.com/content/dam/comerica/en/insights/images/2024MOimage14.png
7 users thanked ben ski for this post.
L.P. on 31/10/2024(UTC), Robin B on 31/10/2024(UTC), Tim D on 01/11/2024(UTC), lenahan on 01/11/2024(UTC), Martina on 01/11/2024(UTC), Law Man on 01/11/2024(UTC), Thrugelmir on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Johan De Silva
Posted: 31 October 2024 23:30:29(UTC)
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The US situation can be kicked down the road because they are doing well. Trump's tariffs could significantly impact the UK. We are highly dependent on the US, right? We'll need to do QE, pushing the pound down. The US is the UK's largest individual trading partner, accounting for a substantial portion of UK exports. If Trump imposes high tariffs on imports, it could make UK goods more expensive in the US, reducing demand and hurting UK businesses. Sectors like pharmaceuticals and automotive exports could be affected.

Retail investors might struggle with being ahead. I've mentioned that Goldman Sachs staff I know invested heavily in gold in their personal accounts around the start and mid-year.
Thrugelmir
Posted: 31 October 2024 23:34:43(UTC)
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Johan De Silva;324148 wrote:
The US situation can be kicked down the road because they are doing well.


Many of the population are experiencing a very different world to those fortunate enough to be invested in the stock market.
2 users thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
lenahan on 01/11/2024(UTC), Johan De Silva on 01/11/2024(UTC)
Peanuts
Posted: 01 November 2024 07:21:33(UTC)
#10

Joined: 16/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 1,482

At what point do yields have a negative impact on stocks? I've heard 5% on the 10yr in US could break the equity rally.
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