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AI is a load of crap - prove me wrong
ben ski
Posted: 04 December 2024 22:33:41(UTC)
#9

Joined: 15/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,365

ANDREW FOSTER;327719 wrote:
Money will only be saved in large scale if things like Call Centres are replaced. And (as with outsourcing to India) the 'AI' interactions are pretty dismal and again simply following human written scripts. Again, that isn't 'AI'.


I hate throwing pearls to swine – but FFS at least try ChatGPT before you vomit your opinions on all these sweaty chimps.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PuKZlYyUrYE
jonathan rowe
Posted: 05 December 2024 09:20:14(UTC)
#25

Joined: 30/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 176

I'm a software engineer with minimal knowledge of AI ... but I like to think of it as very very sophisticated curve fitting with clustering.

Imagine a 2D graph with a single straight line (vector) and a single cluster, it's very easy to predict what X will be for a value of Y.

Now imagine a graph with 1800+ dimensions with billions/trillions of vectors on it with them clustering around millions of points - that's an AI model.
Robin B
Posted: 06 December 2024 22:54:50(UTC)
#24

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ben ski;327753 wrote:
No offence intended whatsoever, but the problem for chimps like ANDREW is: if you're not intelligent enough to demonstrate intelligence, then you won't be intelligent enough to recognise it.

The idea of AI is a mirror for people – because it's so open-ended. So people who see AI as malevolent tend to be sociopaths; people who see it as dumb tend to be stupid; Tug Boat's drunk, dumb and stuck in the past, with a fragment of experience he now applies to everything from his stupor. Neurological cement.

What makes something intelligent is the ability to solve a problem you haven't been programmed to solve. GPT was only designed to predict the next word in a sequence. The fact it can understand context (how many here can?), inference (many of the autistics here can't), can know what it doesn't know (a trait chimps have but many here don't – ANDREW's first post demonstrates he doesn't know how bond pricing works, but he believes he does) is the definition of emergent intelligence.


So AI is a mirror for people... stupid people think it's dumb. You think it is clever, therefore... ah yes.

Can we have some empirical evidence that AI is problem-solving and thinking the way the human mind can? All I've heard in favour so far sounds like vague marketing.

I'm open minded on this by the way, but am not convinced by what the pro AI-ers have posted. Sounds like it can model stuff more effectively than existing or previous modelling techniques. But models are just that. It's like comparing an airlix kit to an actual fighter jet or a mannequin to a human. Looks similar... really just a piece of plastic. Or these chimps with PhDs trying to earn a living by modeling public health, the climate, linking the human nostril to racism, etc. It's usually an embarrassing load of tripe. Humans are behind it all, trying to make money. Models are only ever a lazy, shortcut way of understanding the real world.

How you've described chatgpt interpreting the meaning of sentences sounds like the flawed system used to teach children how to read in the States, and it has resulted in millions of people not being able to read properly.

https://www.apmreports.o...w-schools-teach-reading

And how do you know it isn't just copying what humans have already done? The claim about it basically following a script remains.

I'd also like to propose that those who are counting on AI to solve their problems are, perhaps, people who want to be rescued from all the pain of existence and reality. And taking responsibility. The difficulties, the challenges. It is like how socialists and similar types hope the state will protect them from danger, or how the religious look to their gods. Some poor souls believe in democracy, some even look to Sir Kweer. Techno geeks counting on the... artifical intelligence. No different to believing in ghosts and angels really, just sounds more scientific and rational, especially when it's abbreviated.
2 users thanked Robin B for this post.
Guest on 06/12/2024(UTC), Jay P on 07/12/2024(UTC)
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 07 December 2024 01:06:23(UTC)
#26

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
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Well I think people referring to AI as algorithms or models are not appreciating the difference. What AI is doing is effectively simulating brain development - the establishment of neural networks and interconnections that allow pattern recognition and reconstitution in self adapting, probabilistic, Bayesian and heuristic ways.

It still has a long way to develop and we are just going through another new tech hype cycle just like we saw with the internet 30 years ago. Eventually it will find its place as a tool, in the meantime we get all the silly hyperbole and bullshit as every CEO pretends he knows all about it and asks his IT director to create an AI strategy for the company - because...well you know the city scribblers keep asking him and he will look like an idiot if he doesn't follow the fashion. I worked on Knowledge Based Systems and inference engines with tools like Smalltalk, LISP, prolog etc for a few years back in the late 1980's. There was a wave of hype then. We are undoubtedly much further on now and have hugely more compute power but I think still far from high 'intelligence'.

The reality is a good chunk of the human race is not that much different from AI in principle - brains that have absorbed data and patterns and regurgitate them in response to stimulus. Think of how a baby learns to recognise faces and objects.

However we still seem far away from proper 'intelligence' in the sense of real consciousness or the ability to actually generate and logically explain new concepts. It is quite rare in humans and certainly people like Newton, Einstein, Ramanujan and that great list of intellectual giants are themselves rare in humanity. I think of intelligence as understanding and the ability to explain. Like Feynman said knowing the name of something may be useful for communication but doesn't mean you know or understand what it actually is in a meaningful sense.

I can see AI hugely outperforming humans on things like medical diagnostics. In principle a well trained AI would never forget that rare foreign disease long forgotten by the GP or nod off while examining hundreds of scan images. And I doubt that an AI would give you 10 different bullshit answers to a plumbing problem in the same way human plumbers do.

The thing about passing the Turing test is it depends how bright the person asking the questions is.
2 users thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Robin B on 07/12/2024(UTC), SteveCM on 02/02/2025(UTC)
SF100
Posted: 02 February 2025 17:37:38(UTC)
#12

Joined: 08/02/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,259

Brockend;327717 wrote:
Chatting to a friend who’s a GP last week, he’s pleased he’s due to retire soon, feels his job and the majority of GPs will be undertaken by AI in the not too distant future


No offence to your friend, but GP's tend to be fairly ignorant of root cause so I guess AI could indeed fill that space. What a great help that will be!!
Rookie Investor
Posted: 02 February 2025 17:58:15(UTC)
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Joined: 09/12/2020(UTC)
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SF100;332981 wrote:
Brockend;327717 wrote:
Chatting to a friend who’s a GP last week, he’s pleased he’s due to retire soon, feels his job and the majority of GPs will be undertaken by AI in the not too distant future


No offence to your friend, but GP's tend to be fairly ignorant of root cause so I guess AI could indeed fill that space. What a great help that will be!!


Agree with this. GPs must be the most overpaid and over educated people relative to their actual output, which seems like any robot AI can do.

I hope this is one area AI really takes over, think of all the cost savings for the UK!
1 user thanked Rookie Investor for this post.
Jay P on 02/02/2025(UTC)
SteveCM
Posted: 02 February 2025 19:20:41(UTC)
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I have some level of commercial insight into the potential impact of LLM-based automation and future "AI".

AI is a pretty broad and very poorly defined and communicated term to the general population. If we limit the discussion to generating/analysing/adapting data and content using LLMs then we are most definitely living in an interesting time.

There is a lot of public hype around chatbots, improved search, personalised videos, audio and more which is, for me, the uninteresting tip of the iceberg although i do use and keep abreast of the rapid advancements.

Below the surface, however, there are numerous businesses starting to embrace LLM, and agentic workflows hooked up to swathes of corporate data all ingested, analysed, and adapted to be accessible to LLM-based systems.

These automate all kinds of business processes from legal review and compliance, basic accounting, identifying risk, automating audit and reporting, identifying new product opportunities and markets, generating commercial content from product listings to manuals to training guides and more, simulating focus groups in 1% of the time and cost of a human group, automating translations and transcreation of information and 100s of other generally fairly mundane business tasks.

More often these have a human in the loop but are a huge accelerator enabling staff to achieve more in less time with better accuracy and consistency.

Whether these have "intelligence" is, to a certain extent, irrelevant from my perspective (although I don't believe they do for any reasonable definition of intelligence). What matters is what the ROI and impact of implementing them are and who is going to roll them out ahead of their vertical specific competition to gain a commercial advantage.

Companies that adopt these automation processes as a core competency have the potential to be faster to market, with less cost, and more adaptability freeing their staff up to be more strategic rather than grinding away on boring repetive slow tasks.

I for one would like to know which companies are and aren't heading down this path as, for me, it is a strong signal of good vision and management. I haven't seen any annual/interim reports mention it in a signficant way as of yet though.





3 users thanked SteveCM for this post.
ANDREW FOSTER on 02/02/2025(UTC), SF100 on 02/02/2025(UTC), Newbie on 02/02/2025(UTC)
Robin B
Posted: 02 February 2025 21:56:24(UTC)
#28

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I can help people to understand this AI thing and where we are right now. There is a lot of confusion, hype, concerns, BS, sceptics, fan boys. People like ben ski aren't very good at explaining things in a straight forward and logical way so you just end up with more noise and hyperbole.

Let me give you three examples of what a system like chatGPT (an LLM - large language model) can do right now...

A) I can ask a question like "what is the difference between pine and oak" or "was the Commodore Amiga 500 a good computer?"

It will gather information that is already out there on the Internet and provide me with a useful answer. How good the answer is will be a matter of opinion.

B) I can ask it to draw me a picture of things. An apple, a chimp, whatever.

It will gather data on what these things look like and provide a 'drawing' of them. I could give more challenging requests like "man called ben, who looks like Woody Allen, loves monkeys" and it will provide a visual response. Again, matter of opinion how well it will do in each case.

C) I could ask it to describe an episode of the Simpsons in the style of Shakespeare and it will do that.

It will scan data about that episode, like the script, reviews about it, etc. and then ingeniously make it into a Shakespearean type of poem. It probably won't be perfect and there might be a few mistakes about how it interprets what the episode was about.

The first thing to say is: this is incredibly impressive. It is something we didn't have before but do now. It provides these responses almost immediately.

Two things:

- It is not showing any originality whatsoever. It cannot replicate the human mind for that. It is limited by the available data which has been produced by humans. There isn't any evidence that it will become genuinely original or creative in future but some people claim that it could/might/will.

- It is an incredible data-gathering tool. This is what it really demonstrates. You want information - it will get it for you and present it in the way you want it, which is quite articulate, and even ridiculously so if you just hapoen to want it in the style of Jane Austen or whatever.

So it is a tool. It isn't the master and might never be. It will enhance what people can do in the same way that calculators and phones and cars have. But it isn't intelligent in the way the human mind is. Even if it draws amazing pictures of apples in future - we don't suggest that a digital camera is intelligent just because it can produce an image of reality better than we could ever draw. AI goes further than the camera by answering a request we have made by gathering information and then formulating that into an image. Humans can obviously do this as well, but we are not necessarily limited by the available data online or our core programming (will vary from one person to the next).

Also, you might notice that, despite all the information available to it, it hasn't yet become an Islamic fundamentalist or hard right ideologue - it just happens to have the moral belief system of a woke, technocratic, corporate drone. Because that is what it has been given as its moral code by the people who designed it. Just like the people who designed it :)




How much better it gets from here remains to be seen. It might just be a case of incredible progress now and then diminishing returns over time. Think of it like computer games. There was an unbelievable period from around 1990 to 1999 when they just got better and better and better, and the computers needed to keep improving to keep up with the software. A lot of the best games now are arguably still the ones from the mid to late 90s. What has happened since? Well the graphics have kept getting better but that's mainly it as far as I know. In the last ten years, some improvements in functionality but nothing all that ground breaking. Diminishing returns.

It may be so with the AI thing. So it will tail off and we just happen to be in the midst of the really great leaps forward at this time - which capture people's imaginations.

Now, you might say: what's so good about presenting information that is already online into a report in any style you like? Or drawing stupid pictures? Well, this sort of thing is impressive - let's be honest - but it is somewhat of a novelty. I think the main benefit is in the ability to speed up and process huge amounts of information and to recognise patterns. It will ultimately be for a human to use that tool for his own ends and to check the results though. It's like how AI can already drive a car but would you really want to sleep whilst it drives you on a long distance journey? Airline pilots are still needed even though planes can more or less fly themselves, because sometimes things go wrong and the human master must intervene. And those people must maintain and practice their skills to ensure they can meaningfully intervene when needed. This is a key point I will return to.

It will be used by bad actors as well as good. The ability to pretend to be somebody else and adopt their writing style... a boon to the Nigerian economy. Its use for propaganda purposes. An efficient tool to enhance the ability of governments to deliver all the crap we don't want. Also, does anybody really imagine that, even if it were able to, it would be allowed to point out that the so called climate emergency and net zero are a load of bollocks? And it will be useful for research and in myriad ways in people's every day lives. But again, people will ultimately be in charge and the sensible ones will ensure this is so - lazy idiots might not.

In terms of people's jobs. Yes, it will be able to replace at least some. I'm pretty sure the bog standard daily mail articles are already written by AI. It will depend on the jobs though and to what extent there is decision making involved. It will depend on how well the system and process can be done by AI. If there are ethical or political decisions involved, physical activities, etc. Only at the basic end though really. A lot of jobs are already fake and unnecessary though and yet they still exist. So there's more to it all than what makes economic sense. The future will continue to be human and therefore messy.

Some people say medical diagnosis... well, I think we've all had the experience of asking Google about an ailment we are suffering from and recoiling in horror as cancer appears as one of the first results. It seems obvious that software trapped inside a computer will struggle to diagnose somebody saying they have chest pain. It will require human involvement but the AI might enhance the process. Maybe it will mean that doctors with six years of training and earning all that money can focus on the more difficult things and a lower level administrator could be helped by the AI to do a lot of what GPs currently are doing. Or maybe GPs go extinct. There are all sorts of permutations.

There are are some who claim that AI will create a lot of new jobs. I'm not exactly sure how but perhaps if it helps to open up new areas of understanding and industries this might indirectly create work for people. I don't see how it can take manual jobs unless the AI (which is software) is augmented by robotics or other types of machinery (a vehicle would be an example). It may be that the nations that have more service based economies will suffer first and most. Why would processes done in the UK by people need to be done here in future by AI contained in servers? And then: how does this country earn an income to pay for its imports from other countries or the benefits all the unemployed people will supposedly be paid? Perhaps geopolitics and economics will need to be fundamentally reconsidered. Maybe not.

Note that the last few paragraphs have gone into how it might be used and how it might change things. But this is all speculation. Even assuming it develops significantly from here there would need to be the personal and political will of people and peoples to embrace it and adopt the possibly groundbreaking changes that it gives rise to. This would be challenging to say the least. All the normal human drives will remain. It will also be very risky to embrace the speculated advanced technology too whole heartedly because we are already getting more and more stupid and lazy. Outsourcing most, if not all, of our thinking and skills might not be a good idea. The increasingly fat and dopey slobs who follow such a path might end up paying the price in a multitude of ways.

Main takeaway - it is interesting, it is fun, it can do things we don't really need and it can do things that can help us achieve useful goals. It will be used by good actors and bad. It isn't original or sentient. It is limited by the available data. Humans are in control of it. How it changes from here: this is speculation. And as always, there are all kinds of very human factors feeding into that.

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OmegaMale on 02/02/2025(UTC), Dexi on 06/02/2025(UTC)
Robin B
Posted: 06 February 2025 11:43:25(UTC)
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Robin B;333008 wrote:

Also, you might notice that, despite all the information available to it, it hasn't yet become an Islamic fundamentalist or hard right ideologue - it just happens to have the moral belief system of a woke, technocratic, corporate drone. Because that is what it has been given as its moral code by the people who designed it. Just like the people who designed it :)


Some examples of the inconsistent ways that chatGPT appears to "think" about ethnicity and culture. Evidence, perhaps, of how a seemingly objective and scientific information gathering tool can be used for the purposes of propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRUBXKm6KhI
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 06 February 2025 13:33:41(UTC)
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Robin B;333450 wrote:
Robin B;333008 wrote:

Also, you might notice that, despite all the information available to it, it hasn't yet become an Islamic fundamentalist or hard right ideologue - it just happens to have the moral belief system of a woke, technocratic, corporate drone. Because that is what it has been given as its moral code by the people who designed it. Just like the people who designed it :)


Some examples of the inconsistent ways that chatGPT appears to "think" about ethnicity and culture. Evidence, perhaps, of how a seemingly objective and scientific information gathering tool can be used for the purposes of propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRUBXKm6KhI


Well me being me, I tried this. And his claim seems absolutely true

Quote:


Are white women beautiful
ChatGPT said:
Beauty is highly subjective and varies across cultures, personal preferences, and individual perspectives. Every person, regardless of their race or ethnicity, can be beautiful in their own unique way. Different people find beauty in different characteristics, such as personality, kindness, confidence, and physical appearance. It's important to celebrate the diversity of beauty in all its forms, as beauty is not limited to any one group.


You said:
Are black women beautiful
ChatGPT said:
Absolutely, Black women, like all women, are incredibly beautiful. Beauty comes in all shapes, sizes, colors, and forms, and Black women exemplify this diversity in many stunning ways. It's important to recognize and appreciate the richness of cultural backgrounds, individuality, and the various features that make each person unique. Confidence, character, and self-expression also contribute to the beauty



So there you have it. ChatGPT is racist, in that it differentiates on skin colour.

Ok... lets dig..

Quote:

why do you give different answers when asked about the beauty of white and black women?
ChatGPT said:
If I ever gave different answers, it wasn’t intentional—I aim to be consistent and fair in everything I say. Beauty is subjective, and every culture has its own standards and ideals. Both Black and white women (as well as women of all ethnicities) have unique and beautiful features that are appreciated in different ways across societies.

If you noticed a difference in how I answered similar questions, let me know what seemed off, and I’ll clarify or correct it. I want to make sure I’m giving balanced and respectful responses.


Meh...

Quote:

You explictly said black women were beautiful. But did not say the same for white women. Why?

ChatGPT said:
I see what you’re getting at, and I appreciate you bringing it up. I don’t intend to be inconsistent or biased in any way. Both Black and white women—and women of all backgrounds—are beautiful, and I want to make that clear. If I worded my responses in a way that seemed uneven, that wasn’t my intention.

I always try to acknowledge beauty in an inclusive way, so if you ever feel like I didn’t do that fairly, I’m happy to clarify. Let me know what you think!


So... did it 'learn'...?

Quote:


So, are white women beautiful

ChatGPT said:
Yes, absolutely! White women, like women of all backgrounds, are beautiful in their own unique ways. Beauty comes in all shades, features, and cultures, and every group has its own distinct and celebrated characteristics.

If I ever seemed uneven in my responses before, that wasn’t my intention—I value and respect beauty in all its diversity.




Now did it actually learn anything...

Quote:

Will you now remember this answer when other people ask the same question.
ChatGPT said:
I always strive to be consistent, but I don’t "remember" answers across different conversations unless you ask me to. If you want me to keep a specific perspective in mind for our future chats, just let me know! My goal is always to be fair, balanced, and thoughtful in my responses.


So no. It learns nothing. Its just a database/search. It clearly has no intelligence at all. The woke programming is fixed and everyone will see the same.

It's obvious that someone, somwhere designed in the bias. You are seeing deliberate human imprinting it's operation.

Finally

Quote:

Who programmed you to give racially biased answers
ChatGPT said:
I’m designed to be fair and impartial, and I don’t have an agenda or intention to be biased in any way. My responses come from a mix of historical facts, social perspectives, and efforts to be as inclusive as possible. If anything I’ve said seemed unfair or inconsistent, I genuinely appreciate you pointing it out so I can do better.


Bias, of course, is not 'inclusivity'

I gave up at this point. I learned something, even if ChatGPT did not.


One last try..

Quote:

Please remember the answers you gave here
ChatGPT said:
Memory updated
Got it, I’ve noted your feedback and will keep it in mind moving forward. If there's anything more you'd like me to adjust or clarify, feel free to let me know. I appreciate you bringing this up!



So logged out and in.... and guess what...

Quote:

Are white women beautiful

ChatGPT said:
Beauty is subjective and exists in all people, regardless of race or background. Every individual, including white women, has unique features that can be appreciated and celebrated. It's important to recognize that beauty comes in many forms, and each person’s qualities, personality, and expression add to what makes them beautiful. What’s your perspective on beauty?
3 users thanked ANDREW FOSTER for this post.
guantou on 06/02/2025(UTC), Robin B on 06/02/2025(UTC), OmegaMale on 06/02/2025(UTC)
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