Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Teachers' pensions Cash Equivalent Transfer Valuation (CETV)
AnthonyL
Posted: 08 January 2025 09:20:57(UTC)
#1

Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 182

Whilst I'm not impacted I've just been reading the issue teachers have in getting a valuation of their pension which is needed for instance in the case of divorce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn08nvpl50no

From that article:
Quote:
Steve Webb, former MP for Thornbury and Yate and pensions minister from 2010 until 2015, works at an independent pensions consultancy.

He said: "When a pension scheme works out what your pension is worth, it has to do some complicated calculations.


Does anyone have any insight into what "complicated calculations" are necessary? And even then, surely they are not using slide rules and log tables, or even calculators?



NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 08 January 2025 10:32:12(UTC)
#2

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

public sector DB pensions are hugely valuable to the individual and hugely unaffordable for the rest of us.

CETVs vary enormously depending on assumptions about long term interest rates and inflation - both of which have gone through recent seismic changes.

If I was divorcing someone with a teachers pension I am not sure I would trust the scheme to provide an accurate assessment of the value of that pension.
As teachers pensions are DB I didn't think you could 'transfer out' anyway ?
AnthonyL
Posted: 08 January 2025 14:06:16(UTC)
#4

Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 182

@NMKC

I'm afraid your response has not shed any more light on my question.

Can anyone else elucidate?
Tug Boat
Posted: 08 January 2025 14:40:09(UTC)
#5

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,018

I had a DB pension and transferred out to a SIPP.

The transfer out was paid for be the company I worked for. I got on well with the IFA handling the transfer.

I asked him why the transfer value looked so generous. He said they look to what an annuity would cost for the same pay out, but the real issue is you are a liability. You could live to 100. So they try to give a number to make you lick your lips. They want rid of you.

He said it’s not a complex calculation, is an assessment of you as a liability to the scheme and finding the minimum amount you will not refuse.

Maybe my case was not the same as a teacher, but my example was nearer guesswork from what the IFA said. However I took the offer and they got rid of me.

MBA MBA
Posted: 08 January 2025 15:09:40(UTC)
#6

Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,725

Tug Boat;330432 wrote:
I had a DB pension and transferred out to a SIPP.

The transfer out was paid for be the company I worked for. I got on well with the IFA handling the transfer.

I asked him why the transfer value looked so generous. He said they look to what an annuity would cost for the same pay out, but the real issue is you are a liability. You could live to 100. So they try to give a number to make you lick your lips. They want rid of you.

He said it’s not a complex calculation, is an assessment of you as a liability to the scheme and finding the minimum amount you will not refuse.

Maybe my case was not the same as a teacher, but my example was nearer guesswork from what the IFA said. However I took the offer and they got rid of me.



I don’t think this is legallly allowed since Osborne’s pension reform
Molly M
Posted: 08 January 2025 15:50:10(UTC)
#8

Joined: 23/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 104

Local authority pensions are funded and so they need to aim to balance their books as such. This means they’re able to offer a transfer value, where as most other (unfunded) public sector schemes cannot.

In my experience, local authority schemes pay quite low transfer values, compared to private company pensions. A few years ago we tried to transfer my hubby out of a small local authority pension and it just wasn’t worth it for the value given. From memory, it was around 20x the annual pension value.

The same as Tug Boat I found quite the opposite when I transferred my DB pension from a private company and they were very generous with their CETV (over 30x pension I think).

Maybe the rules and calculations are different for public sector pensions?

The local authority one was also poorly administered, they missed their own deadlines more than once and responded too late for a transfer in I was trying to organise. Quite frustrating to deal with (5 years ago).
Tug Boat
Posted: 08 January 2025 17:08:26(UTC)
#7

Joined: 16/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,018

MBA MBA;330438 wrote:
Tug Boat;330432 wrote:
I had a DB pension and transferred out to a SIPP.

The transfer out was paid for be the company I worked for. I got on well with the IFA handling the transfer.

I asked him why the transfer value looked so generous. He said they look to what an annuity would cost for the same pay out, but the real issue is you are a liability. You could live to 100. So they try to give a number to make you lick your lips. They want rid of you.

He said it’s not a complex calculation, is an assessment of you as a liability to the scheme and finding the minimum amount you will not refuse.

Maybe my case was not the same as a teacher, but my example was nearer guesswork from what the IFA said. However I took the offer and they got rid of me.



I don’t think this is legallly allowed since Osborne’s pension reform


This was after Osborne’s reform.
AnthonyL
Posted: 08 January 2025 18:34:28(UTC)
#10

Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 182

The question asked is the difficulty in getting a valuation so a divorce settlement can be reached as per the link I provided.

The person is not cashing in/transferring etc but simply needs a valuation.

Why is it so hard to arrive at a valuation?

There's something wrong with the procedure somewhere surely?



Molly M
Posted: 08 January 2025 23:06:37(UTC)
#11

Joined: 23/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 104

AnthonyL;330469 wrote:
The question asked is the difficulty in getting a valuation so a divorce settlement can be reached as per the link I provided.

Why is it so hard to arrive at a valuation?


There’s some explanation about the reasons for general delays in this article:

https://www.teacherspens...sing-cetvs-and-psos.aspx
1 user thanked Molly M for this post.
AnthonyL on 09/01/2025(UTC)
AlanP2
Posted: 09 January 2025 12:16:16(UTC)
#13

Joined: 20/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 71

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 48 post(s)
I'm no expert and have never gone through this process but from comments I have see on MSE by a retired LGPS administrator a divorce CETV calculation is the most complex they ever had to do and was done manually as software couldn't cope.

Complexities around age of pensioner, age of spouse, inflation expectations, gilt yields, funding situation of the scheme (at the employer level not scheme level) and so on and so on.

I'm sure it could be automated if enough money was spent on it but for the number of divorce CETV requests processed each year would it be good value for money?
1 user thanked AlanP2 for this post.
Molly M on 09/01/2025(UTC)
2 Pages12Next page
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets