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What's the point of bond funds?
NPH
Posted: 15 February 2025 12:57:51(UTC)
#24

Joined: 26/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 59

Harry Gloom;334538 wrote:
SF100;334514 wrote:
NPH;334504 wrote:
I putt20% of my retirement pot into the L&G index-linked gilt fund as the "it won't do much but at least it's safe" part of my portfolio, only to watch in horror as it dropped 30% in 2022. This has undoubtedly coloured my attitude.


I sympathise with your experience.

But who's to say that the opposite will not happen in the future?
The problem is that we all run out of 'future' - and that's one of the key considerations with choosing your bond exposure.

From your opening post on this thread, it does not come across that you now understand, in reasonable technical/financial detail, the reasons why that horror unfolded.

Honestly, I would recommend avoiding bond funds until you are comfortable with their workings.


So everyone got out of bonds in December 2021 and got back in now did they? smart cookies.


Quite. I understand why it happened, I just didn't see it coming.

And I haven't yet had a clear answer to the original question, based on where we are right now.
NPH
Posted: 15 February 2025 13:02:04(UTC)
#57

Joined: 26/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 59

johan kill;334543 wrote:
Great question! Bond funds traditionally provide stability and reduce volatility in portfolios, which is why many model portfolios still have a significant allocation in them. They tend to act as a counterbalance to more volatile assets like stocks. However, with interest rates rising, as seen in 2022, bond funds can suffer from price declines, which affects their return. If you're in early retirement and have a long investment horizon of 20+ years, you might want to focus more on growth-oriented assets while still keeping a portion in safe, short-term investments to manage risks during market downturns. In terms of long-term planning, having that flexibility with your portfolio is essential, much like finding a dream property in Dagenham—you want the right balance of stability and potential growth for future success.


Seems like it's not an easy question to answer!
2-3 years of cash / short term bonds to manage immediate needs and a downturn.
Equities for 10 years +
What's in between?
Mike ...
Posted: 15 February 2025 13:08:14(UTC)
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‘What’s the point of bond funds?’


If you’re early in your accumulation phase the answer is probably there isn’t one.

As you get closer to retirement the argument for gilts becomes clearer from a risk/volatility management perspective.

Since bonds cratered in 2022 they have become investable again (imo) although I hold individual gilts and IL’s over bond funds.

My pf is 40/60.

40% global tracker

40% individual gilts

20% mmf
1 user thanked Mike ... for this post.
ANDREW FOSTER on 15/02/2025(UTC)
smg8
Posted: 15 February 2025 13:09:47(UTC)
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NPH;334545 wrote:

Seems like it's not an easy question to answer!
2-3 years of cash / short term bonds to manage immediate needs and a downturn.
Equities for 10 years +
What's in between?


I’d have thought the answer is one of the myriad of multi asset funds, which combine equities, bonds, and in some cases other asset classes.

If we are saying bonds are one end of the spectrum, and 100% global equities is the other, then surely something in between works.

Despite what this forum will have you believe, options beyond just CGT, PNL and RICA do exist 😆
1 user thanked smg8 for this post.
Busy doing nothing on 15/02/2025(UTC)
ben ski
Posted: 15 February 2025 13:44:29(UTC)
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NPH;334500 wrote:
Peanuts;334494 wrote:
I think the mistake many make with bonds/bond funds is looking in the rear view mirror. No point looking back at the recent low-interest rate era and the damage (rapidly) rising BoE interest rates did to negative yielding bonds in 2022.

With fixed income you have to look at the current and future environment. Today bonds are on real yields and inflation is coming down. US could be an exception (Trump) but certainly in the UK and Europe yields as a general direction are falling. There are caveats like future supple etc but you need to focus on the current yield and how that fits into your portfolio.

So why not just short term cash or MMFs? Because 1/ you lose the benefit of bonds of being able to lock into higher yields for longer, and 2/ you miss the (important) trick of the future capital appreciation of bonds - as yields fall - bond prices increase. And if yields don't fall - then you continue to receive a higher yield - circa 4.5% on the 10yr. That is £4500 per £100k, almost risk free, and you still get to keep your capital (£100k).

Bonds and particularly bond funds are indeed easy tools of a portfolio but I think you still have to pay attention to the current environment in the sense of your age and time horizon. I wouldn't suggest a 20/30yr old to be 40% in bonds, but someone retiring or near retiring today - absolutely.

Importantly: one needs to also assess the current landscape - especially if you are an index investor - like myself. Nearing retirement when the largest country weighting (US) of a global index is above its 10yr average PE poses a considerably higher risk to the near-term future value of an equity heavy portfolio. 2 or 3yrs of short term cash might not be enough whereas something like an intermediate (7-10yr) bond/gilt fund might be the difference between winning and losing.


This perfectly articulates my dilemma. My portfolio is nearly all global funds and therefore very exposed to the US, but I cannot work what to choose that would negatively correlate any long term downturn. Corporate bonds seem more like to track equities? Shot term and long term is easy, but I struggle with 3-10 years.


Corporate bonds and high yield are arguably a waste of time (imo). David Swensen (one of the great institutional investors) did his PhD on corporate bonds, and generally advised against them, being the worst of both worlds – similar risk to equities; the limited return of bonds.

What's difficult to get your head around is that an individual bond pays you a fixed income, then returns your capital, over a fixed term. So you buy a gilt, and you know exactly what you're getting over the next 5, 10 or 20+ years.

When you buy a bond fund, you're getting a portfolio of these. But what you see in the fund's price is all of these overlaid on top of each other, as their prices react to different things going on in the economy (which you don't really need to worry about). So in practice, it's very similar to buying individual bonds, but doesn't look or feel like it. Spending time on Bogleheads forum (where people generally understand investment principles – I would say 'a lot better', but really at all) is a good way to get that grounding.

In my simple portfolios, I buffer my stock market exposure with a mix of:
– cash
– gold
– defensive equity ETFs (US consumer staples, utilities, energy, healthcare, global quality dividend growth)

The simple act of rebalancing these allocations against stocks provides a sort of safety net. Cash is an easy option at the moment.

If I was going to continue to hold some cash, I could add to this (and should do at some point) something like L&G Global Index-linked bonds. This is going behave in that odd way bond funds do, but it's also storing and returning value, over longer periods, so long as bond yields remain positive.

Really, the rule is that you should never invest in anything you don't 100% understand, as otherwise you'll lose faith in investments, depending on what the price does. And that's not typically going to lead to making good decisions.

Also, really, although many here grapple with them, PNL and CGT are doing exactly what you want. And I don't think anyone here (in a million years) could do a better job. Or would even grasp what they're trying to do and why their own solution wouldn't work.
3 users thanked ben ski for this post.
NPH on 15/02/2025(UTC), Sheerman on 15/02/2025(UTC), Robin B on 15/02/2025(UTC)
ben ski
Posted: 15 February 2025 13:51:33(UTC)
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smg8;334548 wrote:
[quote=NPH;334545]
Despite what this forum will have you believe, options beyond just CGT, PNL and RICA do exist 😆


But what disappointed me is the standard multi-asset funds all failed to spot the one thing they should've done for investors: shorten duration when bonds became unsustainably and pointlessly expensive.

Why were they buying 30 year bonds, that would return nothing, for their clients?

That Vanguard will mess around with stock market exposures, based on value (generally a bad idea), but not bonds (where you actually know the return you're getting), was inconsistent and illogical, and really made you think of people looking at charts and textbooks, with no real understanding of what they're doing.

4 users thanked ben ski for this post.
Guest on 15/02/2025(UTC), S Dobbo on 15/02/2025(UTC), Dexi on 15/02/2025(UTC), Robin B on 15/02/2025(UTC)
SF100
Posted: 15 February 2025 14:13:35(UTC)
#62

Joined: 08/02/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,254

smg8;334548 wrote:
Despite what this forum will have you believe, options beyond just CGT, PNL and RICA do exist 😆
just what we need, another thread sidetracked without offer of realistic alternatives
smg8
Posted: 15 February 2025 14:24:53(UTC)
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SF100;334558 wrote:
smg8;334548 wrote:
Despite what this forum will have you believe, options beyond just CGT, PNL and RICA do exist 😆
just what we need, another thread sidetracked without offer of realistic alternatives


There are literally 900 funds across the relevant IA sectors (flexible investment, volatility managed, 40-85% equity etc etc). The list of realistic alternatives is endless.
NPH
Posted: 15 February 2025 14:26:25(UTC)
#71

Joined: 26/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 59

ben ski;334554 wrote:
smg8;334548 wrote:
[quote=NPH;334545]
Despite what this forum will have you believe, options beyond just CGT, PNL and RICA do exist 😆


But what disappointed me is the standard multi-asset funds all failed to spot the one thing they should've done for investors: shorten duration when bonds became unsustainably and pointlessly expensive.

Why were they buying 30 year bonds, that would return nothing, for their clients?

That Vanguard will mess around with stock market exposures, based on value (generally a bad idea), but not bonds (where you actually know the return you're getting), was inconsistent and illogical, and really made you think of people looking at charts and textbooks, with no real understanding of what they're doing.



This is my issue with multi-asset funds. I would expect lower returns over time vs all equity, but they seem to have done a poor job of downside protection (looking at Vanguard 80/20 vs 60/40 in 2018 and 2022 for instance).
NPH
Posted: 15 February 2025 14:28:55(UTC)
#79

Joined: 26/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 59

Mike ...;334546 wrote:
‘What’s the point of bond funds?’


If you’re early in your accumulation phase the answer is probably there isn’t one.

As you get closer to retirement the argument for gilts becomes clearer from a risk/volatility management perspective.

Since bonds cratered in 2022 they have become investable again (imo) although I hold individual gilts and IL’s over bond funds.

My pf is 40/60.

40% global tracker

40% individual gilts

20% mmf


Thanks, that's clear and makes sense. Second poster choosing individual gilts over bond funds.
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