Prof/Jeremy

I can't post on the rioters thread, too emotional.
".....so many reasons why, there but for fortune go you and I" Joan Baez

I looked at the WW1 site, the kids were romping around the Somme sites a few weeks ago as we motored
down to Paris on the national roads, avoiding the autoroute. They've done it at school so they already knew what the place looked like in 1914-18. My uncle Rowland fought there and I just wondered where exactly he trod as I looked over the present quiet farm fields. He came back according to my mum with all kinds of lice and fleas, and my Grandmother had to burn some of his clothes. Anyway, the lions led by donkeys won.
With reference to this thread, those same donkeys didn't give up their land, property and enormous ill-gotten wealth, they're still running the country, and after some 60 years of Socialism the lions are still at the bottom of the pile, running around looting shops.

Your machine shop story reminds me of the 60s, with strikes and marches every few weeks, A joiner friend was arrested on site for smashing all the ceramic drains and when asked why, he told them he was bringing down capitalism. It was them and us where I was, call it looting if you wish, they were trying to screw us and we were trying to screw them. No one suggested we work together, Harold Wilson was sabotaged all ways, spied on by MI5, the rich and brainy were leaving as the brain drain, I recall some kind of control on taking money out of the country, and devaluation, although I didn't know what it all meant. Labour nationalised, Tories de-nationalised,

You wonder if the management knew about phoney overtime...no, because they didn't know what a turret lathe was for, and no one told them, shop floor was a dirty place, might get some oil on the suit. They just ask the progress chaser, production control, when the job ABC will be ready, and what's the bottom line in £.
My neighbour John worked in a bank, father had a partnership in a joinery business, windows, stairs, doors. The business went a bit shaky in the 70s and John joined the firm, marching around watching the orders from builders being manufactured. Alas it went bust and John decided to set up alone, he nicked a few machines and tools and started work in his garage, next door but one from me. His work was rubbish, he butted the joints because he couldn't do a mortice & tenon, he filled in the gaps with putty or something and painted over all the faults. BUT, he could make a window or door frame in less than half the time it had taken at the manufactured joinery business. He realised that the men ahd been bluffing him and his father for years. I recall him quoting for fencing to the local Labour council, and when the man saw the price he sent him back to double it, which he did, and got the job.

Mr Fiat.
Thanks, I'm getting quite an education in economics, it's a bit like playing cards with someone holding all the aces, or perhaps all the cards.

Anonymous 2 needed this 'Off the Record'

Engineertony
You have a point about poor management, which has been noted by others as well.
I remember an advisiry assignment I did in a company.
I was asked to assist with the changeover to new more advanced expensive plant and equipment.
There was a problem of poor productivity.
To get a better understanding of the problem, I used the technique of activity sampling.
Every time I was in the area, I would drop in and ask the operators why they were not working and producing. i.e. getting dirty on the shop floor.
The equipment was to manufacture cans for the food industry.
Nine times out of ten, the reason was - waiting for metal. They did not have the materials required to work with, nothing to do with plant and equipment. The existing plant was more than adequate to produce and make a profit.
So I agree that some management is far from perfect.

Prof Eman

Nice one Prof

Surely the division of who is using the imported goods, and who is using imported services is roughly in proportion to their numbers rather than their contribution to the GDP, the 80% 20% you quote.
Suppose the quoted figure of 2.6 million in manufacturing is true, out of a total workforce of say 26 million, then we would expect the contribution to GDP to be in that ratio i.e 10% and 90%. It then follows that if the whole service sector was sent overseas, the manufacturing sector would have a trade surplus as 90% of the 8.9 bn goods deficit would not be required.

The fallacy lies in not considering the consumption of services by the manufacturing & industry sector. Would be interesting to see a real analysis along these lines, taking account of the consumption of goods and services by the various sectors, e.g. high flyers through to council tenants.

Prof and Tony

I am currently busy on other things. Digging up statistics is time consuming and hard work.

I would just remind you, Prof, that the service sector includes office cleaners and burger flippers who are usually on even lower wages than factory workers. So the average service sector worker may not spend any more than the average industrial / manufacturing worker. Even counter clerks in banks are on miserable wages to force them to illegally mis-sell useless rubbish to the customers and earn some commission. The Maserati drivers, while obnoxious, are relatively few in number. The only Porsche driver I ever met was a self-employed builder. His wife borrowed it to ferry Labour Party workers about during elections. Much to his disgust and everyone else's amusement.

Prof, I am trying not to be upset with you because what annoys me is obviously part of who you are. I fully expect you to come back with a statement, regarding my remarks on low paid service sector employees, with a response along the lines of, "Well, of course I knew that. I said so in post number 9,000,033". Your post 345 actually suggests that either you do not know this, have overlooked it in your excitement or have chosen to ignore it in pursuit of a rhetorical point. I am unable to fathom which. On past experience I doubt you will agree, so I will not mention it again.

If you want to make me laugh instead of grind my teeth, feel free to point out, in your absolutely serious way, that we have not yet reached post 9,000,033 and ask me to check my reference.

Have either of you ever watched "The Big Bang Theory" on Channel 4? It is a situation comedy about a waitress interacting with some science and engineering nerds. Sometimes on this thread I feel as though I have been teleported onto that show.

I have recently come across an interesting book ....worth reading for all pundits of economics/philosophy/engineers/etc....

The 7 Myths about Love........Actually by M George... worth checking out


bless all
xx