Tony

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, although I prefer reasons. I don't get too upset about bizarre beliefs when sincerely held. There is no accounting for taste. What gets to me the most is persistent changing of stated beliefs to conveniently fit the current argument. General woolliness comes second. I don't think the Prof is fully aware of doing it. I give him credit for sincerity. Which is why I try not to be upset. Sometimes I fail.

Some examples: I have two Christian fundamentalist friends who believe in creationism, that God made the world in six days. One holds a PhD and still does useful research, the other is retired after being a good administrator for many years. Both are personally kind. Since they are such strong believers, I often introduce Biblical quotations into our conversations. As is usual with true believers, they are unfamiliar with their own text book. It is so much easier to swallow the pre-digested pap spouted by their sick and twisted preachers. They know I am atheist, I have asked them were they dropped on their heads as babies? We get along.

Another friend is a hard working, honest, kind and generally sensible British born Muslim. She is horrified by the violence committed in the name of Islam and while admitting that her ancestral homeland is a dangerous place, says, "It is so beautiful and none of my family would do anything like that". While I accept her sincerity, I have asked her to feel her skull for bumps and dents. She reports no such evidence in support of my theory. We get along.

Many years ago I had a Christian friend, honest, hard working, had a good job and was a Sunday School teacher. He put up reasonable arguments for the No camp in the EU membership referendum. We spoke in public debates on opposite sides of the issue. He was a little bit extreme on the Northern Ireland question. After a young relative of mine who served in the British Army was murdered by the IRA, I was not really in the mood to question this. One day when I was having a rant along the lines of "shoot the bloody lot", he offered to take me to Belfast and introduce me to someone who would give me a gun. I was so astounded that I did not take his offer seriously. I believed he was trying to shock some sense into me. A few months later he was arrested and subsequently given ten years for terrorist arms and explosives offences. He actually did bump his head playing football and underwent brain surgery. Which was not enough for him to plead insanity. We no longer get along.

I agree with your last paragraph.

Since the three of us are by far the most prolific contributors, we can allow ourselves to go off topic if we want. Or we could start a new thread. Services or manufacturing was never an either / or alternative and we have done the arguments to death.

Moylando

The tortuous language is to be precise where nit-pickers either by accident or design seize upon any ambiguity to try and cast doubt on anything and everything previously said. It is why business contracts are so often inches thick.

The "swallow the pre-digested pap spouted by sick and twisted preachers" comes from an attempt by me to refute the expressed opinion that I am intolerant of opposing beliefs, however weird. Since everybody who is not a religious fundamentalist believes that religious fundamentalists have weird beliefs and most agree that they become weird by listening to sick and twisted preachers: my having friends who are fundamentalists is a good argument in refutation of the accusation of intolerance.

I do not care that they have bizarre beliefs, so long as those beliefs are sincere and they do not start killing people. Some people like to believe in things no fully rational person could believe in, some people like to eat at McDonalds or listen to rap music. There is no accounting for taste.

Again, I use a convoluted argument because some person or other will otherwise attempt to twist my words and meanings.

I think engineertony has changed some of his opinions. Whether anyone else has I do not know. However the debate has helped me clarify my own ideas, so from a selfish point of view has been worth it.

Other people have changed their stated beliefs quite frequently and conveniently: which was the burden of my complaint that caused others to accuse me of intolerance. Whether stated beliefs coincide with actual beliefs in such a case is unknowable. Let me repeat that I welcome people genuinely changing their minds in response to new facts or deeper reasoning. Changing their stated beliefs as a matter of convenience in a particular argument is, I would suggest generally undesirable. My mention of it comes from its frequent occurrence in this thread.

I will repeat for your benefit that there can be a difference between stated belief and actual belief. Have you never listened to a politician?

Moylando

Regarding your second paragraph: what engineertony said.

It is not globalisation that has done for us, it is the refusal to learn the global lessons. We could get better government, better schools, better public transport, a better health service and so on. We just need to look at how the most advanced foreigners do it. That usually means looking to Northern Europe and sometimes Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It hardly ever involves the currently fashionable adoration of Uncle Sam. Just as the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and so on copied western manufacturing techniques and then improved them. engineertony has made his living from globalisation. So does much of this country and it has done since the Stone Age. Yes really, look at the Time Team website.

Plus: to your question on Trident, the answer is plainly yes. It will be a drop in the ocean, but a start.

Prof

I am glad for your tenant's sake that you do not simply let your property fall to rack and ruin, either in despair at making an honest living from it or because there is always someone desperate enough to live in the worst slum. Living in an area that is increasingly dominated by buy-to-let, I have watched over the last twenty odd years as it turns into a slum. The respectable working and lower middle classes have been replaced by students, single parents not far enough along the social housing ladder, the newly divorced, the mentally ill, the alcoholics and the junkies. Your less scrupulous fellow landlords will help the dregs of society to destroy you. Sell up and buy shares or collectables such as stamps and coins while you can.

Prof

There were two sets of newspaper stories summarised in today's Citywire. That is leaving aside the specialist sections on precious metals and other commodities. Given how slow loading this site is, you could have saved all those interested in learning more a lot of time by saying which one you meant. Stating which newspaper the original quotation was from would have saved us even more time. On another occasion when I mentioned this unfortunate habit of yours - not properly quoting sources or giving URLs - you said you were too busy to do so. You are too annoying as well.

For those who care about the original source and want to know more, it is on FT.com. You can register with the FT to read 30 free stories a month and not be bombarded by spam.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/...bdc0.html#axzz1VrcoEWLI

It is an interesting story and thank you Prof for so cack-handedly pointing us to it.