Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Money v Making Stuff-Should Britain bid farewell to the golden egg of banking.
Anonymous Post
Posted: 14 June 2011 13:51:24(UTC)
#31
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

Still on Life Support
To me the issues are quite simple.
I will use an engineering/car driving based analogy to illustrate my point.
Gordon is in the driving seat, David is in the front passenger seat-sleeping, when Vince the back seat driver shouts, "We are overheating."
So what happens-Gordon keeps on driving and David keeps on sleeping.
The engine starts to seize up.
So David after his kip, takes over the drivers seat and carries on engine spluttering.
Little wonder that we do not have a lot of confidence in our politicians?

Prof Eman
engineertony
Posted: 14 June 2011 16:33:08(UTC)
#32

Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 71

Prof, Beautiful.
I think we are homing in on something serious here, the system itself.
Another engineering analogy. Twenty engineers go for a job but instead of an interview with personnel & department head, a look around the plant and a check on qualifications, they each speak for a few days to the workforce, typists, cleaners, plumbers, storeman. Then they have a vote and the highest vote gets the job. The person who gets the job is a fast talker, a bluffer, quite appealling to the female staff, but sadly not a clue about the working of this particular plant, so within a few months there are problems, breakdowns, and big losses for the firm.
For me the country is a big machine and we could expect the drivers to notice all the dials and indicators, bells and alarms sounding when something is going wrong. Also I am always on good terms with operators, electricians and technicians who may shout from the back seat when things don't look right.
Why did no one listen when Vince Cable made his warning, simply because they live in a world of lies, cheating, false moves, and ignorance so they don't know who is telling the truth.
Gordon kept on driving because he doesn't know what overheating is, and David is so keen to have a drive after his long kip that he won't listen to anyone.
chazza
Posted: 14 June 2011 17:20:12(UTC)
#33

Joined: 13/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 606

I fear this a tad unkind to Gordon. He did, early on, have a pretty shrewd idea that all was not well with the global financial system, but was gulled by his new over-dinner friends into thinking that any but light touch regulation would frighten away the golden geese. David and his mates were, meanwhile, warning that OVER-regulation was inhibiting the creative capitalism from which we would all, as wealth trickled down from the new putocrats.
Too many dinners with bankers later, and Gordon was suckered into making that infamous 2006 Mansion House speech, a speech whcih could have been delivered by any modern Conservative Chancellor, in which he praised bankers for securing 'London's position of global pre-eminence not only as the international financial centre of the world' and celebrated the fact that financial and business services accounted for 10% of the economy, 'a larger share of our economy than they are in any other major economy'. The astonishing hubris of that worried me at the time and should have set all the warning lights flashing.
And he went on: 'And even at a time of global uncertainty, government debt in Britain is lower than France, Germany, Italy, America and Japan and growth in Britain is strengthening..'
All this looks like a lost golden age, but it was lost not simply to Labour's profligacy with public spending, but because the whole of Britain's political class (Vince Cable possibly excluded) was in thrall to the City of London whose 'financial innovation' was celebrated when it should have been viewed with suspicion.
Anonymous Post
Posted: 15 June 2011 12:55:49(UTC)
#34
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

Chazza
I agree with you that I might have been a little unkind to Gordon.
But he did allow the financial/services party to go on for too long.
Let us hope the the LibDems will not get similarly "suckered."
On the business/financial services being too large, please google a certain Lord Oakenshott-The Liberal Peer. Vince was not alone. There was an interesting article on him just a few days ago in The Independent. Not quite sure which day now.
To be honest, probably the only really clever people in the MP bunch were those two.
But then what do you expect?
Work out how many services people are MP's and compare with industrial/manufacturing/engineering MP's.
Enough said?

Prof Eman
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 15 June 2011 13:44:51(UTC)
#35

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

If memory serves (feel free to check) only about 10 per cent of the population works in industry. So you would not necessarily expect very many elected MPs to be from that background. The proportion of women is also well below what one would expect if the sample was representative of the whole adult population. There is probably a smaller proportion of MPs under the age of 30 than in the general adult population, similarly MPs with a background as manual workers and so on. There is no particular reason MPs should closely reflect the make up of the population as a whole.
Michael Peters Fenwicks
Posted: 15 June 2011 14:50:10(UTC)
#36

Joined: 31/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 14

HAHAHAHAHA..........PROF....... COMMON SENSE UNIVERSITY.......WE COULD WITH A LOT MORE OF THESE............
engineertony
Posted: 15 June 2011 23:38:14(UTC)
#37

Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 71

Prof & Jeremy

I don't think we need concern ourselves with MPs representing the various sexes or employment occupations, but 10% engineers & scientists would make me happy. The fact is there is a problem with UK manufacturing, with technical skills, with levels of maths and computer science. There's no one to make cars & buses, or light bulbs & cameras, there's no one to mend our washing machines or fix our televisions, there's no one to repair our houses. It is being realised that unless you generate wealth, then you can't have services such as police, rubbish emptied, libraries, schools, parks and gardens.

My grasp of economics takes me back to analogies, with the wild west or a medieval village. We establish our town, the carpenter, the horse breeder, the chicken farmer, the butcher, the baker and the candlestickmaker. When we have a surplus of goods we can barter to get the things we want. We cannot immediately have a sherif, gardens, or open a school, these are services.

Now comes the complexity, the money lender, the coin clipper, the middleman, the trader, the opportunist who wants a good living without the hard work. He might be bringing spices, metals or fine cloth from another area, at an inflated price, and get rich by doing this, and richer still when he lends his wealth at interest. He's not growing or making anything, he creates nothing and in fact he is indirectly taking money from other people, but he has the upper hand. He wants a horse, beef and bread and candles but he's not making anything, he contributes nothing to the national pie, but he takes a big slice.

Of course the real world has become far more complex, but we have to realise that even if the third world will make the things we need, we have to pay with something, and so far it's not worked too badly because we have all the money to shuffle around, call it banking, investments, speculation, gambling, it works because we had a start with the empire. But that was 50 years ago, our old colonies are now raising their own capital, banks & insurance, and ... manufacturing as well.

So the point of my input to our discussion is.......who is in charge, who is capable of seeing what is needed to maintain our position in both manufacturing and financial and other services? This needs a high level of competency, experience and knowledge which few MPs appear to have, hence disaster is looming.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 16 June 2011 00:34:51(UTC)
#38

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

engineertony

I agree with your last paragraph. We as a nation need to use our brains better because brains are our only non-wasting asset. North Sea oil and gas are running out, climate change will wreck agriculture and so on.

We need to specialise in those areas where we do best and trade what and where we can. Adam Smith on the division of labour and David Ricardo on the law of comparative advantage tell us why,

http://en.wikipedia.org/...i/Comparative_advantage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour
Alasdair Lawrance
Posted: 16 June 2011 08:44:30(UTC)
#39

Joined: 08/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 4

I'm most impressed by the responses ESP. From engineertony and Mr Bosk. They both chime with my own thoughts re. Our current rulers and Captains of Industry, as I believe they are called.

My current bête noir is the sale of the BBc's Television Centre. This is a high quality, purpose built production facility, and our philistine leaders see no reason to preserve and use it. The studios are insulated from the physical environment the air conditioning is especially effective although not so necessary now with fluorescent/LED lighting. You can't hear the tube trains and you can get a double deck bus in to most of the sttudios. Call me old fashioned but we used to make the world's best TV, as well as some rubbish. Now all you need for a TV broadcaster is a broom cupboard, a DVD player and a phone line - look at the free view listings. The fact that BBC Research Department virtually invented the Engineering Standards for PAL tv counts for nothing. Never mind the cultural significance of the place, which completely by-passes th present administration.
Whatisname
Posted: 16 June 2011 10:09:49(UTC)
#40

Joined: 21/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 15

I feel reluctant to put my views into such a well thought and argued set of comments but here goes, there are a number of points which hopefully I will pull together at the end as I think there are a number of strands to our current position some of which are off topic but I believe they are all interrelated.
Our children are being let down by the education system with the dumbing down of standards and the use of flawed teaching methods that result in 20% leaving school barely able to read and write. Coupled with the simplification of science and maths teaching requiring universities to run course in remedial maths for its students.
Over the last decade and probably longer we have rewarded people for not working; while I am all for supporting people when they are unable to get a job we are currently supporting a large number of people who don't want a job. Some families have four generations who have never worked.
Our current benefits system and low rate of interest appears to actively reward people for being spenders rathre than savers.
Savers/investors often get ripped off by the financial services industry which in the main appears to be totally obsessed with making money for those involved with it rather than for its customers.
Our politicians lack the knowledge of the real world, most are professional politicians and generally come from a small set of self selecting relatives and close friends.
The demands of the financial services industries in the main result in a short term approach to investment, generally only family or privately owned companies can invest for the future. Most companies are looking at monthly or quarterly results as their point of reference for success.
The size of our public sector with the large salaries for those at the top and the unfunded pensions for all are a massive drain on our countries resources.
Our companies managers are often incompetent at best and solely concerned with what they can get out of the company and rarely with what they can contribute to the benefit of the company/shareholders.
We have an ageing population who if they have any savings have seen them decimated by Government policies and the rapacious financial services industry.
We have a celebrity obsessed society with no reward to those who invent or make things, fix people or perform research.
The only solution I can see is to cut the size of the public sector, make them pay for their pensions, make public services managers responsible so they will get sacked without compensation when they mess it up and automatically sack everyone involved with the statement "we have learnt lessons and will put procedures in place to ensure it does not happen again". This should cut the taxes that our industry and individuals have to pay. Then we need to improve our education system and remove the concept that everyone deserves a degree so our children learn that there are winners and losers and winning takes effort. Bring back skill based training (apprenticeships but without the old outdated conditions) to allow those who have practical abilities to benefit from them. Strengthen the controls on the financial sector to ensure returns to the investors rather than the managers and ensure prosecution of those who benefit from insider trading etc. Give MPs the same level of benefits and tax status and expense reporting conditions as those enforced for everyone else by HMRC. Insist prospective MPs have had a proper job for at least 10 years. Reward companies that are investing for the future with tax breaks to discourage shortermism. Make it easier to sack incompetent staff.

I believe the key is to improve the education of our children so there may be hope for the future that they see past the bluffers and charlatans and have the skills that will enable them to make the right decisions about what our country needs in the future. I hold out little hope of this happening when we have our teachers voting to strike because they do not understand that we are broke and cannot continue to afford to pay for unfunded pensions with an ageing population

88 Pages«Previous page23456Next page»
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets