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Money v Making Stuff-Should Britain bid farewell to the golden egg of banking.
jeff lampert
Posted: 11 September 2011 23:14:14(UTC)

Joined: 13/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 41

whatisname

One fay I will write a book on the misuse of inter-comapany debt: anyone who boasts how they can "strip" a balance sheet without explaining inter-co debt is either a liar, an idiot or very possibly both!

The key point is:
all inter co debt disappears on consolidation why the companies are trading, but in an insolvency situation thay all become seperate companies and.................................................................
Whatisname
Posted: 12 September 2011 01:22:02(UTC)

Joined: 21/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 15

I cannot argue that the inter company transfers should not have been investigated but they were to the exclusion of everything else. Multi nationals use a variety of means to ensure that profits in high tax countries are not too large and base themselves in low tax countries where they arrange to make maximum profit. However while we may not like this happening when it reduces our tax collection, the companies have to maximise profit for the benefit of shareholders not governments. One could argue that the multinationals are now to large but that would be a different thread. Moving the cash around does allow lots of obsfucation as we have seen with many companies that went bust, poor auditing?

Companies already hold asset registers and it is relatively easy to revalue them but the real creative accounting takes place in the area of intangible assets and R&D where one could argue that the valuations and depreciation times may not be in the best interests of the shareholders but of the directors who are going to get bonuses usually based on short term results. These valuations have to be based on opinion rather than fact and are therefore open to abuse. The skill is to change the circumstances before it becomes obvious that the original valuation was wrong. Why else do Governments change the method of calculating statistics nearly every year - so they can say the figures are not comparable with last year.

I agree with the views about auditors becoming responsible to the shareholders and not the directors. All too often we see public companies apparently run for the benefit of the directors, non exec directors and senior managers rather than the shareholders. Much the same as the senior management in many public sector organisations. Golden hellos, golden goodbyes, reward for failure and excessive pay increases rewarding poor performance. I should not get onto casino bankers where they seem to get bonuses no matter how poorly they perform. Perhaps now that fund managers are being encouraged to take an active part in companies they invest in it may not be left to the revolting small shareholders, that can be read both ways depending on your views.
What is the alternative? More regulation, more rules, more quangos? I do not have the answer as I have always found it is very easy to make things complicated and very very difficult to make them simple. Then we have the “its my right” people of all generations and classes who believe they have the right to do what suits them irrespective of the damage to everyone else who will ignore any rules that may restrict their “rights”.

Jeremy,
What make you think that us up north want London’s rejects? :-)

A lot of the houses being knocked down in northern towns were perfectly serviceable and could have been refurbished at relatively low cost but John Prescot wanted them knocked down, for reasons I have never been able to determine, irrespective of local opposition. In many cases they have been left derelict or demolished without replacement. I gave up trying to work out why the last government did anything, it all appeared so irrational. The current one is shaping up as a worthy successor.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 12 September 2011 07:33:47(UTC)

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

PWC on audit tenders

Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/...bdc0.html#ixzz1XiXY9zZY

The firm opposes a recent recommendation by the Financial Reporting Council suggesting that listed companies be obliged to put their audit out to tender at least once every ten years, or explain why they have not done so.
http://www.frc.org.uk/im...ack%20Paper%20Final1.pdf
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 12 September 2011 07:48:16(UTC)

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Whatisname

As a northerner born and bred, with only five years in the south east as a teenager in the sixties, I was willing to take one for the team. A sacrifice in the national interest :-)

My two oldest friends are London born: although both sensibly escaped to northern universities and only ever went back to see the old folks.

I agree about the demolitions. Some were sensible decisions to cope with the loss of population in a particular area. Liverpool lost half its population after WWII. Others were schemes to demolish and replace or refurbish properties that were caught in the change of government. Cameron's gang cut off funding even where schemes were half complete, sometimes leaving one house standing in a street or one resident in a row of boarded up and vandalised houses. It was bad economics at best.

Reason, long term thinking and consistency are as alien to those who have misgoverned us for the last several generations as is the idea of human decency.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 12 September 2011 08:07:31(UTC)

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Some facts on personal taxation by country:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/...bdc0.html#axzz1Xb0whb00

We do not do badly.
Still on life support
Posted: 12 September 2011 17:10:09(UTC)

Joined: 27/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 52

Afternoon to all of you who answer yes to the title of this thread and agree to a greater or lesser degree with the Prof that we need to at least shrink if not remove completely the banks.

It seems that you will get your wish given the annoucement today. UK banking becomes significantly less competitive if the IBC proposals are enacted in full and we can expect some of our biggest firms to dramatically reduce their UK presence.

We can also expect to see the rates we pay for loans to rise, and for retail banking to cost more, which will disproportionately affect small businesses who still undertake a significant proportion of their activity in small value cash or near cash transactions.

I for one think its a mistake, especially given that it wasnt universal banks on the whole that failed in 08, it was a pure investment bank (Lehmans) and three lending banks with poor funding models (NR, RBS and HBOS).

The effects will probably not become completely apparent for some time to come, but we may well look back on this in future years as a reason that the UK slump lasted longer than it needed to.


Anonymous Post
Posted: 12 September 2011 18:25:30(UTC)
Anonymous 3 needed this 'Off the Record'

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Many banks (including what we consider retail banks) used financial instruments to cover their bad lending.

These instruments were in highly rated companies but backed by thin air.

Paying more for borrowing and nolonger having' free' banking may well be the price we have to pay for the stupidity of the recent past.

The slump will be over once paper losses have been converted into real losses and the phoenix of banking shall indeed rise yet again, as always, from the ashes.

I remember 'free banking' being restricted to those who maintained a balance of £50.

This then rose to £100.

It didn't last long then and it probably won't last long this time round either.

Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 12 September 2011 18:40:20(UTC)

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Still on life support

I entirely agree.






Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 12 September 2011 19:12:50(UTC)

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Luddites and Xenophobes Rejoice!

Your dream and our nightmare is coming true. The Eurozone will be destroyed. So go out and buy enough alcohol to drink yourselves to death. Or buy tins of beans, candles and blankets to last 30 years. In another generation or two the world will begin to put itself together again.

The wilfully ignorant will succeed in creating a new and worse banking crisis. The electorates refuse to acknowledge reality and will not allow the politicians to do what is necessary. That the Luddites and Xenophobes will endure the same misery and squalor they have inflicted on the rest of us is poor consolation.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64020390/xrm45126

http://www.financialsens...of-immense-consequences

http://www.johnmauldin.c...ng-for-a-credit-crisis/

Of course I might be wrong.

If we are all still here in five years time we will probably know the answer. Feel free to gloat. If I manage to survive in no worse state financially than I am today it will make me smile whatever happens.
jeff lampert
Posted: 12 September 2011 22:43:52(UTC)

Joined: 13/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 41

Jeremy

Of course you are 100% correct!
It was all so forseeable: you probably know my view, 500 year old accounting methods invite the Madoff's of this world to abuse the rest of us, most of them with impunity! Eventually sometimes wakes up and says I want some value for the buck I lent you.

Where do we go from here?
Out of character for me I suggest we do NOTHING.

I watched my grandsons slide down, well a slide, over the weekend. If they tried to get off half way down they could have injured themselves, as well as getting me into big trouble with their mother.

We do not know where we are heading with all this. We have NEVER been anywhere like it before; the closest, the '30's finished in WW2.

WW3 is not an option. If we kick the can a little further down the road a "soft" option (China forgives all debt?) may appear.
So I suggest we carry on, hoping a way out will appear.
Meanwhile we seek to convince everyone we are all in this together------ a forlorn hope!
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