Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Sensible Risks being a Property Investor - What are they for you?
Raj K
Posted: 26 April 2016 18:30:08(UTC)
#1

Joined: 22/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,819

Hi Everyone

I am a novice investor compared to some other people I know. I have seen stories of people in the nineties or there about obtaining 90%LTV on properties and continually refinancing and building a portfolio.Although this has worked for many it seems a very risky and probably isn't even possible in today's climate.

So my questions are this

1) What do people see as a safe amount of gearing to have on a BTL. 50% sounds like a safe long term figure to me. Of course yield and safety margins at elevated bank interest rates need to be taken into account aswell

2) How much cash reserve do you think is sensible as a percentage of mortgage debt. I have read the sensible investor has £20000 cash for ever £100,000 of mortgage debt.

3) Which professionals do you need to have in your life to manage the wealth related to property

i). Accountant for tax advice, structuring etc. Are there specialists who deal in property restructuring?

ii) Life Insurance etc. What if any level of debt should you reduce so your dependants are not left in a mess when you pass.

Raji


Big boy
Posted: 28 April 2016 17:08:38(UTC)
#2

Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 6,689

Why BTL when market overpriced. Income and any gains are taxed. The housing market is in for a downward correction so why invest at present. If think housing market going up better invested in house builders for a geared investment. If holding in ISA free of CGT/income tax. If income required take out 3% capital pa which grossed up is a return of 5% at 40%. You can run a self select ISA for minimum costs.

wonderdelight
Posted: 28 April 2016 18:16:48(UTC)
#4

Joined: 16/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 9

All,

If one was thinking of investing say in a property, yes I agree there is quite a lot of risk at the moment. It does seem houses around where I am have suddenly gone up like no tomorrow. It's crazy. The cheapest are selling but some I have seen still not selling for more than 2006 prices.

Lets say I wanted to invest, but I was not leveraged and was purely looking for a return. If I purchased a small property for 100K, cash, there is no risk of mortgage rates going up for me, no reason to sell, just want income. So lets say today 100K house gives me 550 a month, I get 6% gross income. This is a good return. Not only this the asset will no doubt grow over the longer term. If it does not, so what, eventually the 550 a month becomes say 775 a month say in 11 years time with inflation, so grows too.

The real question is should I buy the home personally or limited. Personally would mean it would affect my other income, salaried or dividends. So I was thinking why not buy them cash via the existing limited vehicle, rather than taking it out as a dividend. This way I say on the extra dividend tax and can use the cash at will. Also if I buy limited, the immediate return of rental income is kept in the company and does affect my existing income.

I was thinking of never selling them, buying say 4, cash over the next 5 years till it gets to say 30K income. I can then draw on this income as part salary when I am ready as a pension. The houses would stay as a trust in the family. Having it limited would mean I can offset any expenses. I realise they are changing the rules, thus affecting all the BTL leveraged bods, but I will simply buy cash.

any views?
Jon Snow
Posted: 28 April 2016 23:45:55(UTC)
#5

Joined: 02/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,172

My view is you seem a bit confused (sorry to be so harsh).

First off, if you can access property for £100k and get 6% yield why are you on this forum?

Secondly your assumptions re. future growth are just that.

Thirdly what on earth are you on about with the existing limited vehicle?

Fourth given your complicated arrangements do you not have an accountant who can advise you on the merits/disadvantages of incorporation wrt property management.

My opinion
- BTL (residential property) has recently been a two track investment -

1. income (to cover ongoing costs) and

2. capital gains from increasing property value.

You will probably find that rental yields are at best net 4% (after all the costs others will have referenced, don't forget void periods and the liability to council tax falling on you) unless you bought the property a long time ago.

Is the game up? I don't know. If property prices freeze or go "NEGATIVE EQUITY" if interest rates rocket up then both 1. and 2. can be at risk.

On the other hand if you own a good deal of the equity (my BTL is 25% mortgage) then you get a tax break and you do have a physical asset. Not a share or a bit of paper or a promissery note, a place you could live in yourself.

So BTL still has a place in a balanced portfolio. I wouldn't start there though and I wouldn't enter the market now.

Raj K
Posted: 29 April 2016 07:50:43(UTC)
#6

Joined: 22/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,819

[quote=
On the other hand if you own a good deal of the equity (my BTL is 25% mortgage) then you get a tax break and you do have a physical asset. Not a share or a bit of paper or a promissery note, a place you could live in yourself.

So BTL still has a place in a balanced portfolio. I wouldn't start there though and I wouldn't enter the market now.

[/quote]

Hi can you clarify what tax break you are referring to if you own a great deal of equity in the property?


Kind Regards
Raj

wonderdelight
Posted: 29 April 2016 17:16:43(UTC)
#7

Joined: 16/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 9

Hi J Swales,

When I was referring to 6% yield and 100K I was referring to the discussions on whether BTL was still worth the investment. Some say NO, some say yes. I was really implying, depending on whether you are leveraged, if so by how much will dictate whether its worth entering the BTL mortgage. When you say why on earth? You are implying others cannot deviate from the initial discussion. I tend to disagree. So I repeat, my point was, if you are not leveraged, then income will still remain, as you are not subject to interest rates. Capital values are only relevant if you aim like many, is to buy a property for capital value increases, whilst just covering the basic mortgage or interest only. I for one would not be in it for that. Income is income.

With regards to arrangements, I do have an accountant and I am seeking advice from other quarters before I do anything. It’s not complicated. I have a limited company with cash inside it. Let’s say 150K. Rather than take dividends out over say 3 years, 30K a year to minimise tax at standard rate, I am saying, I could set up a holding company, move the money into that and use the money to then buy the property. Build up the portfolio like that.

This is a forum not an accusation board on whether one is worthy of posting something you agree with or not. So just keep it calm and simple, unless I have somehow upset you.

Like anything, its about the strategy. Right now the leveraged game I think is game over. Take away the costs you can offset, which will be reduced, it will become harder. Failing that there are alternative investments, paying into a SIPP, getting 5-7% yield and paying tax on 20% of 75% of the capital at 55. Not bad either.
Jon Snow
Posted: 29 April 2016 19:23:09(UTC)
#8

Joined: 02/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,172

wonderdelight;32998 wrote:
Hi J Swales,

When I was referring to 6% yield and 100K I was referring to the discussions on whether BTL was still worth the investment. Some say NO, some say yes. I was really implying, depending on whether you are leveraged, if so by how much will dictate whether its worth entering the BTL mortgage. When you say why on earth? You are implying others cannot deviate from the initial discussion. I tend to disagree. So I repeat, my point was, if you are not leveraged, then income will still remain, as you are not subject to interest rates. Capital values are only relevant if you aim like many, is to buy a property for capital value increases, whilst just covering the basic mortgage or interest only. I for one would not be in it for that. Income is income.

With regards to arrangements, I do have an accountant and I am seeking advice from other quarters before I do anything. It’s not complicated. I have a limited company with cash inside it. Let’s say 150K. Rather than take dividends out over say 3 years, 30K a year to minimise tax at standard rate, I am saying, I could set up a holding company, move the money into that and use the money to then buy the property. Build up the portfolio like that.

This is a forum not an accusation board on whether one is worthy of posting something you agree with or not. So just keep it calm and simple, unless I have somehow upset you.

Like anything, its about the strategy. Right now the leveraged game I think is game over. Take away the costs you can offset, which will be reduced, it will become harder. Failing that there are alternative investments, paying into a SIPP, getting 5-7% yield and paying tax on 20% of 75% of the capital at 55. Not bad either.


hi wonderlight, I wasn't directing my post at you (if I were, I would have quoted your post first)but merely replying to the OP.
Anna Danishek
Posted: 10 May 2016 09:39:38(UTC)
#9

Joined: 26/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11

Today you can achieve LTV about 70% if you are able to “prove your worth”. According to https://tranio.com/trani..._investment_strategies/ a safe investment needs at least €100K. For example, having €300K you can buy a flat or a student accommodation expecting 5-7% yield for short-term rentals or 2-3% yield for long-term. Allow for that a residential property has higher liquidity than a commercial one
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets