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Politics and Economics-2017 Election
King Lodos
Posted: 01 June 2017 22:10:10(UTC)
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Prof Eman;47442 wrote:
Mickey/King Lodos
The trend seems to be point the wrong way. Poor times /recession post Brexit was predicted by many highly qualified, intelligent people with a life time experience in economic matters. Many people did not believe them and instead chose to believe Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson and some papers that print stuff to sell papers and not to inform the public of the facts.


Well of course we've not left the EU yet.

Indeed the best performing asset class in the world over the past 6 months has been UK Micro-Caps (the most domestic-facing of UK companies).

I voted Remain because I didn't want to rock the boat .. But I think the reality is no one has a clue what the effects of Brexit will be .. I worked briefly in European business law, and the complexity of EU trade laws are unfathomable .. You could read the whole of Proust's In Search of Lost Time ten times before you'd even made a dent on these vast digital libraries .. We're told to trust economists – but they've proven less useful than coin tosses when it comes to macro forecasts (which is why they're not all running hedge funds) – and academia's so politically biased these days, fields like economics are becoming little more than Marxist fan-fiction.
3 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Sara G on 01/06/2017(UTC), jvl on 02/06/2017(UTC), Alan Anderson on 06/06/2017(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 01 June 2017 22:20:47(UTC)
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jvl;47436 wrote:
I've always instinctively liked the Poles too (must be linked to growing up on WW2 movies and playing 'Escape from Colditz' - they were on our side). I'm not as concerned about them as other groups of immigrants.

However, even though I'm not (I think!) on the scrapheap, I have noticed simply from walking around and picking up my kids from nursery that I seem to be in a minority for having an English accent. The majority of parents picking up their kids are East European. Some are grandmothers picking up their grand-kids.

I also note that it's a lot harder to park the car on the street with more houses being converted to multiple occupancy - most with East European occupants - so having more cars per house.

There's surely a cold calculation to be made: if someone's paying Y in tax, how much are they taking in total benefits, including health and education services for their extended families? How many of their children are monolingual and could hold back other children at school or demand further resources? (To be fair, the East Europeans speak English well and so do their kids but the nearest primary school to me is starting to get a number of starters that don't. As a parent, that starts to bother me)

Is there another loss if they go, from employers or customers, having to source more expensive labour? Etc. It's a complicated calculation!


An irony is that Poles themselves are extremely cautious when it comes to immigration – currently facing sanctions from the EU for not opening their doors to non-EU migrants and refugees with resolute defiance.

They've also had virtually no problem with Islamic terrorism.

As you say, we should be doing these calculations – how many jobs and businesses do migrants create? – and balancing the positive and negative effects across the social spectrum .. Steve Jobs' father was a Syrian migrant .. But unfortunately the Social Sciences (no offence to our professor above) which should be doing this work, have instead disappeared down the rabbit hole of post-modernism, and now produce very little of any value.

There's some very funny work featured on Real Peer Review.

Feminist researcher invents ‘intersectional quantum physics’ to fight ‘oppression’ of Newton
‘I, being white, should not be in all spaces.’
https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/32830/
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jvl on 02/06/2017(UTC)
Prof Eman
Posted: 02 June 2017 15:10:22(UTC)
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King Lodos
The Poles and immigration, have sounded out the situation.
The Poles say that they are not responsible for the flow of refugees, having been reluctantly drawn in by the coalitions. It is the big players like the USA that need to sort this out.
Secondly they feel that refugees could do more, as the Poles did, during the last war fighting alongside the allies to help win the war, and not expect hospitality without such an effort.
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jvl on 02/06/2017(UTC)
Prof Eman
Posted: 02 June 2017 19:03:35(UTC)
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King Lodos
Working out cost/benefits is indeed a difficult calculation.
However lots of people approach with prejudices rather than look at the facts.
On education entry with no English, the beginnings are difficult, but it is amazing how quickly children pick it up the language. After two years in school it is normally impossible to recognize a child of immigrant parents from that of true Brits, i.e. the English they speak.
Only a few days ago I observed an eight year old translating for her Chinese mum who did not speak English. It was fascinating to watch.
The people that have attempted this calculation have found that benefits outweigh costs
King Lodos
Posted: 02 June 2017 19:58:16(UTC)
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Well I'm completely in favour of Eastern European immigration, but many others aren't.

The problem with this calculation is it involves weighing economic effects against social effects .. Our universities are full of the children of middle-class parents who benefit from globalism – as are the universities themselves (who benefit from foreign students).

So it's no surprise academics often come to the same conclusion – apparently 92% of professors hold leftwing political views .. This is the environment of Communist rags like Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! .. But the problems a family in Corby face, when the people who used to give them work are now employing Poles, and the danger society now faces from Islamic terrorism and cultural tensions, and an increase in violent crime across Europe (bucking a long-term trend), are all real effects which have to be quantified too .. And the public are clearly saying: the social effects aren't being taken seriously enough.
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xcity on 03/06/2017(UTC), john_r on 04/06/2017(UTC)
Prof Eman
Posted: 02 June 2017 23:05:41(UTC)
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King Lodos
You have made some valid points worthy of further consideration.
For now however I want to dwell on to-night's York Uni questions/issues raised.
Three interesting comments were made to me following the programme.
-Which one do you prefer,intelligent May voting remain or U turn Brexit May?
-Do not care whether Corbyn pushes the red button in retaliation as I would not be around to witness it.
-There is a money Maytree for corporations under corporation tax i.e.the 5%, but not for anything or anybody else.
Please assist with responses to the above.
sandid3
Posted: 03 June 2017 07:15:03(UTC)
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With a question like immigration, it's always good to ask what would Socrates say? My guess is that he would use 'ad absurdum': If one Chinese mother and child is good, 50 million of the same must be good. If one Polish plumber is good then 20 million of them must be good. If you can't see that is absurd then you are not looking for an answer; you are looking for an excuse.

At this point, the 'straw man' argument usually comes up that Brits are 'little Englanders' against all immigration. In fact, Brits are clearly against excessive immigration.

Once you accept there are good and bad levels of immigration then you have no choice but to set a time-variant quota. This is what those benefiting from immigration try to avoid discussing at all costs - usually by playing the 'racist' card to shut down discussion.

Once you have a quota then the question is who sets it and on what basis? Britain has spoken - the British people must set it, or at least their properly elected representatives in parliament. (Take back control.) The basis of the quota is whatever is best for British people. That doesn't mean 'on average' if that produces a hugely better off London minority and a worse off rest of the country. Taking back control from a self-serving London establishment is a work in progress.

As for students - they are in a bubble, benefiting from the current system. What seems a rational decision for one student to take becomes someone else's 'externality' problem if repeated by hundreds of thousands of students and their parents.
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jvl on 03/06/2017(UTC), Guest on 03/06/2017(UTC), Alan Anderson on 06/06/2017(UTC)
jvl
Posted: 03 June 2017 08:52:09(UTC)
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Prof Eman;47497 wrote:

On education entry with no English, the beginnings are difficult, but it is amazing how quickly children pick it up the language. After two years in school it is normally impossible to recognize a child of immigrant parents from that of true Brits,


That's very nice for the children of immigrant parents but you're missing the point.

Is it good for our children?

What happens to the progress of English children, who can already speak English, as they wait for the children who can't to catch up?

Is their progress
a) improved
b) the same
c) hindered
by waiting for others to catch up or by missing the valuable teaching resources that are diverted to teaching other children what they know already?
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gillyann on 08/06/2017(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 03 June 2017 09:15:17(UTC)
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Prof Eman;47506 wrote:
King Lodos
You have made some valid points worthy of further consideration.
For now however I want to dwell on to-night's York Uni questions/issues raised.
Three interesting comments were made to me following the programme.
-Which one do you prefer,intelligent May voting remain or U turn Brexit May?
-Do not care whether Corbyn pushes the red button in retaliation as I would not be around to witness it.
-There is a money Maytree for corporations under corporation tax i.e.the 5%, but not for anything or anybody else.
Please assist with responses to the above.


1. I think it's complete non sequitur (on the part of Paxman, et al) to say May's done a U-turn on Brexit .. As soon as the country made the decision to leave, her own (and own our) choice stopped being relevant – and then the only job became getting the best deal.

I never thought we needed a pro-Brexiter negotiating for us – but when political battles are fought on soundbites and reductive headlines, it forces May into a corner.


2. Even the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated (the Tsar Bomba) would only wipe out from the centre of London to about Richmond upon Thames .. From St Albans to Reading, your chances get much better – and we've detonated thousands of nukes over the past century which haven't ended the world.

What they have done is made the prospect of war so unappealing (especially financially), war has practically fallen off a cliff – as documented in Steve Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature .. There's never been a time in human history you're less likely to be killed in conflict .. And Trident's Second Strike capability means there's really no practical value in trying to wipe out the whole UK with multiple warheads. Of course, you have to be willing to use it to ensure you'll never have to use it.

http://www.wildculture.com/sites/default/files/RV-AE378_VIOLEN_G_20110923205707.jpg

The most likely nuclear attack this generation will ever see will be a dirty bomb from a terrorist group.


3. The most important thing to understand with debt and austerity is the long-term debt cycle .. The real driver of growth in an economy is knowledge (new advancements leading to greater efficiency) .. But we spend 75% of the time growing faster than this fundamental trend – through Keynesian economics, spending, borrowing, etc.

At some point, this trend has to reverse, because economies can't sustain growth faster than fundamentals are actually growing, indefinitely .. and at this point debt usually becomes a real issue for future growth, and it has to be paid down .. And at some points this involves austerity, and at others, stimulative measures (like reducing corporation tax – because the real measure is Debt/GDP of course).

May's plans have both elements – trying to maintain growth while paying down debt .. I don't think anyone on earth knows whether they're going to be effective – however, Corbyn's plans would be almost trying to copy what Socialists did with Greece and Venezuela's economies .. I think now would be a very dangerous time to increase debt whilst slowing the economy. I've mentioned I'd be looking to offshore my financial assets.



dyfed
Posted: 03 June 2017 10:14:10(UTC)
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I find it hard to believe that Labour will win, so planning to buy utilities and UK small cos Monday-Wed esp if they fall a bit further.
But jic Labour get in am also increasing my "safe haven" holdings: Pyrford and short-dated bonds. Maybe also UK ITs like EDIN and MNL which hold international/US stocks: some protection if sterling falls further?
And presumably set up to buy any remaining bargains on Friday if the Conservatives get in and sterling goes up.....and sell utilities at a loss if Labour get in!
But this is all skirmishing with my cash float - doesn't effect my core holdings.
Any thoughts?
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Mr Helpful on 03/06/2017(UTC)
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