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Globalization Lunacy?
anglo29
Posted: 20 August 2018 09:41:56(UTC)
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Joined: 04/12/2015(UTC)
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On a financial programme this morning, it emerged that the majority of cod caught in Scottish waters is exported to China to be filleted, then re-exported back to UK supermarkets for sale!

I don't think I've heard anything quite so bonkers as this in a long while. Apparently it works out "cheaper", cheaper for who?....the supermarket chains maybe?.....certainly not the shopper, judging by today's cost of a small portion of fish tightly wrapped in plastic.

I would have thought the SNP; so ready to defend perceived Scottish interests, might have had something to say about this?

In complete contrast, a recent Radio 4 programme highlighted a Nottinghamshire village that still operates the old medieval system of "strip field farming", where, thanks to a benevolent landowner, local farmers are allocated their own strips of land to farm, leaving a strip at each end uncultivated for wildlife to flourish. No insecticide is allowed. Produce is sold locally at reasonable prices, benefitting both local farmer and consumer.

Perhaps, post Brexit, this kind of more self-reliant "back to the future" lifestyle would benefit us all?....

Tim D
Posted: 20 August 2018 10:09:00(UTC)
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Scottish newspapers covered this almost a decade ago but I don't remember it ever becoming a bigger deal politically:

http://www.heraldscotlan...ile_trip_to_your_table/

But political rhetoric around fishing (evoking jolly Captain Birdseye figures in woolly jumpers) rarely connects with the reality (much of the UK fishing fleet's quota resold on to permanently at sea giant foreign-owned factory ships).

Don't underestimate just how cheap labour is in China. I used to work for a multinational with offices in China... they could hire something like 60 engineers in China for the cost of 3 in the UK or 1 in the USA. (But quantity is not quality... they'd give China a project, and then after 18 months when it had all gone pear shaped it'd get handed over to us to fix. I imagine they can at least fillet fish well enough though). For this fish thing, maybe the real problem is transport isn't priced correctly... if it was priced for pollution and climate change impact then local processing might start to make more economic sense.

Nostalgic pining for a return to "medieval" local food production and more farmers' markets is all very nice. But it's too inefficient to ever scale up to replace a significant proportion of what the supermarkets and indusrial scale farming does (and of course the supermarkets are all terrified Amazon will enter the market and force everyone to wring even more out of their systems).
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Tom Mozy
Posted: 20 August 2018 10:22:10(UTC)
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Joined: 09/07/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424

Have family from Grimsby area. The fishing and food packing industry is in terminal decline. The factories are closing and there are very few vessels landing fish anymore.

Globalisation is one thing, the EU fishing policy another, and when minimum wage is £7.83, you have alot of reason to move operations elsewhere.

Yet the population there votes labour. I cant quite work it out, and I dont think the voters have linked the topics either. Too much need for welfare since the industry has been decimated by politicans.
AJW
Posted: 20 August 2018 10:53:40(UTC)
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It's natural to be nostalgic about the good old days, but we have to face up to economics and progression (i.e. the reality of the world).

I firmly believe if we went nationalistic on production, we'd just end up paying far more for stuff and long-term productivity would be knackered.

Not to say we shouldn't support our own industries, but the whole anti-globalisation thing doesn't bode well.
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anglo29
Posted: 20 August 2018 11:58:12(UTC)
#4

Joined: 04/12/2015(UTC)
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Tom Mozy;66954 wrote:
Have family from Grimsby area. The fishing and food packing industry is in terminal decline. The factories are closing and there are very few vessels landing fish anymore.

Globalisation is one thing, the EU fishing policy another, and when minimum wage is £7.83, you have alot of reason to move operations elsewhere.

Yet the population there votes labour. I cant quite work it out, and I dont think the voters have linked the topics either. Too much need for welfare since the industry has been decimated by politicans.




Found your post interesting. I'm old enough to remember when fresh fish from Grimsby, Hull, Folkestone etc. was transported overnight by rail overnight to the major cities. The London fishmonger would collect his order from Billingsgate fish market in the early hours, and his customers would get fresh fish that same morning.

Your post is an example of how developments over the years are all connected, for instance (correct me if I'm wrong) but Grimsby was one of the many port towns affected by the decimation of the railways by Beeching many years ago?....so the fast method of overnight transportation was suddenly gone. The fishmongers no longer got their supply of fresh fish, they closed down and are now a rarity in many towns. The supermarket is often the only place where you can buy fish.(usually wrapped in plastic) The EU made the final "killer punch" by limiting the fisherman's catch.

Towns like Grimsby go into decline, unemployment rises, the government loses out as well, by having to pay out increased amounts in benefits, whilst no longer getting the income tax take from formerly employed people.

It's not a case of getting "nostalgic for the past" as mentioned in some posts, more a question of who wins out through the decimation of our fishing industry?....

A local trader summed it up for me recently when I was in conversation re. the number of small shops closing down in my area (including the fishmonger). He said..."Our little shops were ticking over quite nicely up until a few years ago....Then they (the local Council) decided to plonk yellow lines down our street so no-one could park anymore to pick up heavy goods.....then, under pressure from the Liberal chattering classes, decided to pedestrianize the High Street....fine for those sitting outside Starbucks enjoying their Cappuccinos, but disastrous for the local bootmaker/repairer providing a service. Then the Government upped the business rate.to reflect all the "improvements".

Apparently it's called progress. ...








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Tom Mozy
Posted: 20 August 2018 13:04:00(UTC)
#6

Joined: 09/07/2013(UTC)
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Correct, we should be able to complete against globalisation, by doing things faster, smarter and more efficently. However our politicans are just massive sell outs to big business and the expense of the working man.

The working man then votes for more socialism instead of free market capitalism and it gets worse.

Dont get me started on car parking.... Sheffield, you cant park your car for free anywhere in the centre, and the cost is really high, its the business that suffers, ill just go online.

The decline in the high street could be prevented. By why would the council or govt want to stop that?
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Tim D
Posted: 22 August 2018 09:42:31(UTC)
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In the past, food and clothing used to be a significantly greater percentage of household spending than they are today, while now housing, transport and leisure now get a greater proportion than they used to:

spending 1957 vs 2017

or as a table

spending

(Sources here or here).

Globablisation is surely responsible for food and clothing deflation, so it's conceivable nationalism, isolationism, trade barriers etc could cause a swing back to the historic spending proportions. Not sure people will appreciate it though (unless slashing housing and transport costs to free up cash for other spending was part of the solution).
anglo29
Posted: 22 August 2018 12:27:52(UTC)
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Joined: 04/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 779

Tim D;67094 wrote:
In the past, food and clothing used to be a significantly greater percentage of household spending than they are today, while now housing, transport and leisure now get a greater proportion than they used to:

Globablisation is surely responsible for food and clothing deflation, so it's conceivable nationalism, isolationism, trade barriers etc could cause a swing back to the historic spending proportions. Not sure people will appreciate it though (unless slashing housing and transport costs to free up cash for other spending was part of the solution).




Perhaps a return to more emphasis on food and clothing as a proportion of expenditure for families would be no bad thing?

The graph you featured showed that household spending on leisure services for 2017 as opposed to 1957 had, as a percentage of income, more than doubled, whilst the percentage currently spent on food as opposed to 60 years ago, is substantially less.

Presumably "leisure services" includes monthly subscriptions for smartphones etc.? In the past I've had occasion as part of my former occupation, to visit households where the claim was they cannot manage on the benefits then paid out to them. Yet, hanging on the wall was the inevitable flat screen telly, and mum, dad, and the kids all appeared to have their own smartphones.

What families like this need, is not more benefits, but lessons in household management as to the essentials of daily life. The problem is, so many have grown up with the attitude that having a car, mobile phones, expensive TV, is a "right".....It is not, they are luxuries you buy if you can afford them, something that the deteriorating state of our economy may soon illustrate.. It's likely to come as a profound shock for some..






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AJW
Posted: 22 August 2018 13:51:52(UTC)
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anglo29;67106 wrote:
Tim D;67094 wrote:
In the past, food and clothing used to be a significantly greater percentage of household spending than they are today, while now housing, transport and leisure now get a greater proportion than they used to:

Globablisation is surely responsible for food and clothing deflation, so it's conceivable nationalism, isolationism, trade barriers etc could cause a swing back to the historic spending proportions. Not sure people will appreciate it though (unless slashing housing and transport costs to free up cash for other spending was part of the solution).




Perhaps a return to more emphasis on food and clothing as a proportion of expenditure for families would be no bad thing?

The graph you featured showed that household spending on leisure services for 2017 as opposed to 1957 had, as a percentage of income, more than doubled, whilst the percentage currently spent on food as opposed to 60 years ago, is substantially less.

Presumably "leisure services" includes monthly subscriptions for smartphones etc.? In the past I've had occasion as part of my former occupation, to visit households where the claim was they cannot manage on the benefits then paid out to them. Yet, hanging on the wall was the inevitable flat screen telly, and mum, dad, and the kids all appeared to have their own smartphones.

What families like this need, is not more benefits, but lessons in household management as to the essentials of daily life. The problem is, so many have grown up with the attitude that having a car, mobile phones, expensive TV, is a "right".....It is not, they are luxuries you buy if you can afford them, something that the deteriorating state of our economy may soon illustrate.. It's likely to come as a profound shock for some..



I'd argue it suggests that thanks to globalisation, the costs of basic goods has fallen and quality of life has risen as people have more disposable income to spend on services and transport.

I'm not quite sure where benefits and modern home technology comes into this. Again, I'd argue globalisation has allowed the cost of useful items such as smartphones to be low enough for the average Joe. Getting wound up at low income families who are "taking the piss" because they used some of their money to buy a widescreen tele shows a real disconnect from the lives of those less well off imo.
Tim D
Posted: 22 August 2018 15:23:17(UTC)
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anglo29;67106 wrote:
Perhaps a return to more emphasis on food and clothing as a proportion of expenditure for families would be no bad thing?


Know some earthy, greeny types who would love to see that happen too. In their mind, it'd come about because people will stop shopping at supermarkets and start buying wholesome all-organic artisan produce from the local farmers' market, and stop shopping at Primark and start buying homespun hand crafted woollens etc. They're living in fantasy land... more likely even the cost of mechanically reclaimed meat ("pink goo") junk food will escalate, and the price of the quality stuff they think everyone should be consuming would inflate into the stratosphere.

anglo29;67106 wrote:
Presumably "leisure services" includes monthly subscriptions for smartphones etc.?


I think so. These days the ONS seems to split out "communications" into a separate category while TV subs go into "culture and recreation"; guessing they were aggregated for the purposes of this comparison (the 1970s was the decade of domestic landline adoption and the the GPO only produced the first telephone directory in 1967 so I doubt anyone was keeping tabs on phone expenditure back then!)

anglo29;67106 wrote:
The problem is, so many have grown up with the attitude that having a car, mobile phones, expensive TV, is a "right".....


I think the incredible rise in the popularity of owning cars by leasing schemes must have its roots in exposure to mobile phone ownership schemes. People who have grown up with the real capital cost of their fancy phone obscured by monthly payments and expecting their "free upgrade" every year were never going to be content to buy a used car and run it into the ground. All this is arguably enabled by cheap credit arising from QE. My parents' and grandparents' generation abhorred debt. Suspect that's something that'll need to be painfully relearned at some point in the future.
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