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Why people tend to stick in the social and economic class in which they are born
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 06 August 2011 15:38:54(UTC)
#1

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

It is the British housing system.

William A.V. Clark, Maarten van Ham, Rory Coulter:

Socio-Spatial Mobility in British Society
The analysis shows that education and income play critical roles in the ability of individuals to make neighbourhood and decile gains when they move. There are also powerful roles of being unemployed and being (and becoming) a social renter. Both these latter effects combine to seriously restrict the possibilities for socio-spatial movement for certain groups. The results suggest serious structural barriers to socio-spatial mobility in British society, barriers which are directly related to the organisation of the housing market.

http://ftp.iza.org/dp5861.pdf

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It takes a little effort to get past the academic language, but only a little. Deciles are tenths, so moving from the 9th decile to the 8th is a gain and moving from the 9th to the 10th is as low as you can go.
Ian McKean
Posted: 07 August 2011 11:44:47(UTC)
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Joined: 06/09/2010(UTC)
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Not quite sure, Jeremy, why you have started this topic, but feel moved to comment that such academic studies fail to understand or take account of the real structure of society. Also they all seem to start from a position that "Socio-Spatial Mobility" (whatever that is) is good without questioning it.

Like my wife, who came to the UK as a young woman, they think that class is all about money. But in fact class has very little to do with money. Remember the adage, "It takes three generations to make a gentleman".

It's not just about what you sound like when you open your mouth. You can nearly always tell someone's class from their appearance and gait when they walk down the street or even ride a bicycle.

This country has always enabled people to rise above their station from the time of Cardinal Wolsey and no doubt well before. There are lots of kids now going to private schools from wealthy families with no class. But the danger is that children learn as much from their peers as from their school, so you have to keep the influx to less than 20% according to the headmaster of my prep school back in the 1950's. Otherwise they will fail to adopt the standards of the rest, and will act as a drag on them. I think that is partly why standards of integrity have fallen so much since the War. Nowadays the concept of duty has largely disappeared and the eleventh commandment is the only one that matters.

But there will always be a limit to social mobility, perhaps mainly because the British are not an aspirational nation. Consider that the most popular "soaps" from America were things like "Dallas" and "Dynasty" while in Britain the most popular soaps like "Coronation Street" and "Eastenders" portray the dregs of society. Odd that this is so, because Shakespeare understood that his plays had to be about royalty or at least important people in order to be commercially successful. Somewhere in the last five hundred years we have lost the plot.
6 users thanked Ian McKean for this post.
Stephen Garsed on 15/08/2013(UTC), Budd Fox on 18/05/2014(UTC), alan thompson on 05/09/2014(UTC), D G Stonebanks on 08/09/2014(UTC), Guest on 25/09/2014(UTC), john brace on 12/08/2016(UTC)
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 07 August 2011 17:34:05(UTC)
#3

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

You could say social and geographic mobility. As I said, it takes a little effort to get past the academic language. Socio spatial mobility is the ability of people to move into a higher social and / or economic class by getting a better job, or learning a new way of life, in a new part of the country or indeed new country. People who live in sink council estates generally also have a poor education, poor quality neighbours, poor housing and poor job opportunities. They are either unaware of opportunities elsewhere or are unequipped to take them. These circumstances tend to run in families through the generations but are not, by and large, genetically determined.

I agree that class is about more than money. So do the statisticians. The most poverty stricken vicar counts as higher class than a successful and rich sportsman. You can if you wish distinguish social class from economic class.

But this is not my main concern. I believe that people should have as nearly equal an opportunity in life to better themselves as is possible. Inequalities of wealth and income, of social, economic and geographic origin are too great in this country and should be reduced. Whether people choose to seize opportunity or not is up to them but the opportunity should be there.

Britthai
Posted: 08 August 2011 09:36:56(UTC)
#4

Joined: 08/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1

The need to communicate.

Whether a moaner or a teacher the average person tends to drift towards the audience that understands the extrapolated topic.

There is little satisfaction in competing at any level with people outside ones own competence and certainly nothing to brag about afterwards.

People of a similar class can extrapolate safely without crossing forbidden barriers. People of the same class have more understanding of the barriers and will know when they have been crossed.

D G Stonebanks
Posted: 08 August 2011 13:52:33(UTC)
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Joined: 13/07/2010(UTC)
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Jeremy Bosk "I believe that people should have as nearly equal an opportunity in life to better themselves as is possible. Inequalities of wealth and income, of social, economic and geographic origin are too great in this country and should be reduced."

So how are you going to achieve that? Are you going to confiscate wealth and give it to those not so fortunate? Of course, if you do, then you destroy the incentive to work hard and create wealth.

As an 11+ failure, I support comprehensive secondary education to give all an equal opportunity. But you have to overcome the natural preference for selective education (grammar schools) for children of the winners. And many of those in high places were 11+ winners, so now in a position of power and their views carry more weight than the views of the losers.
1 user thanked D G Stonebanks for this post.
m.c.f on 26/03/2016(UTC)
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 08 August 2011 14:24:32(UTC)
#6

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

More obviously successful societies in Scandinavia have much lower pay differentials and more progressive taxation. If they can succeed under such circumstances so can we. Not everyone is motivated solely by material possessions.

I agree with your last paragraph although I attended a very bad grammar school. One of my neighbours who failed his 11+ went on to become a Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society. I despised the tests at the time because there were usually several valid answers that the setters were too stupid to have seen.
Paul J
Posted: 08 August 2011 14:50:39(UTC)
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Joined: 09/08/2006(UTC)
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Seems to be that the only mobility measured is 'up'.
I reckon there are plenty of cases where mobility is 'down'. In terms of economic class at any rate.
Yesterday I read that Humphrey Lyttelton's son was convicted of benefit fraud.
Humphrey Lyttleton went to Eaton and was about 38th Heir to the Thrown.

My own opinion about your question is a combination of home environment, 'smartness' (not the same as intelligence but that also helps) , and the work ethic, coupled with ambition to achieve rather than just 'earn a living'.
1 user thanked Paul J for this post.
D G Stonebanks on 08/09/2014(UTC)
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 08 August 2011 15:48:02(UTC)
#8

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Paul J

Most movement is upwards as the working class shrinks and the middle class grows. But it does go both ways. The classes are not in rigidly fixed proportions. My contention is that upward mobility - for those who want it - is harder than it used to be and harder than it needs to be.

A Google search on "British social mobility" will return a long list of newspaper articles, official statistics and academic research to confirm this.

I agree with you about the effect of home environment. But the wider environment has as much or more effect - schools, neighbours, friends and so on.
Graham Barlow
Posted: 08 August 2011 16:48:15(UTC)
#9

Joined: 09/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 203

All this endless analysis of where people are, and why, drives me to drink. In the words of Mr Churchill "God preserve us from experts". All this talk takes no account of personality ,inborn talent,self startability drive, and initiative. If you have these in abundance you will break in to anywhere. All my life I have met people from the most humble backgrounds who have reached the top in life, including myself and most of my family.Britain is full of such people, those who dont have these attributes tend to stay where they came from. Simple common sense
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 08 August 2011 17:44:06(UTC)
#10

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Graham

You are arguing nature versus nurture. Don't you know that it is both?

If it were really a matter of simple common sense we would have "built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land" centuries ago.
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