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Why people tend to stick in the social and economic class in which they are born
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Clive B
Posted: 09 August 2011 18:40:19(UTC)
#21

Joined: 25/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 508
Jeremy

Some interesting ideas there, but - as I'm a cynic - I'd have to respond with

First point: transferable council houses - do you have any evidence that once people came 'down south' they'd actually look for work. All too often we read/hear that jobs are available, but people don't want to take them. Basically, the benefits system makes life without a job good enough and that working 35-40 hours/week would not give a dramatic improvement in living standards. So-called benefit trap.

Second point: we wouldn't save any money if the people who swapped location failed to get a job. Rather, we'd probably pay them more.

Third: a) wasn't this tried with the Sure Start program, but tended to get over-used by the middle class, and b) once again you'd have a benefit trap. The least well off would receive (in your words) a 'large financial incentive' to attend, whereas those a little better off - trying to manage on their own with no state aid - wouldn't get that benefit, so would be relatively worse off.

Though I almost dislike saying it, I think the root cause is that our benefits system is too generous. People need an incentive to get off their backside and go to work. One could then use the savings from that to improve schooling etc.

Clive
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Recently Redundant and Retired
Posted: 09 August 2011 19:11:33(UTC)
#22

Joined: 08/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 334
Anonymous 1.....did you originate in L32?
Dennis....Try selling a terraced house in Belfast and moving to Esher or Brighton, maybe after a lottery win, but it would take a lot of QE to make everyone in a troubled area a millionaire, then of course, it would be meaningless.
The pyramid which applies to all social structures, food chains etc., means that fewer people can live in nice areas, that's what makes them nice, and the factory fodder are squashed into slums, ok, not that simple, but we could talk for weeks about it.
If the population of Toxteth or Moss side or Tottenham moved to Padstow then it would no longer be Padstow as we know it.
Jeremy.... from Equal Opportunity stems positive discrimination, always, partly for the reasons you give, but mainly because you have to make it work and be seen to be making it work. So some opportunities are put aside, ring-fenced, for the groups you mention, blacks, asians, gays, women, catholics, all of whom I love and respect, but how is this equal opportunity for the individual?
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Dennis .
Posted: 09 August 2011 20:00:00(UTC)
#23

Joined: 26/12/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,018
Hi Recently redundant and retired (sounds like me)

I accept your argument about selling a terrace house in Belfast but my point is that you can either stay where you are and live with the consequences or do something about it like emigrate or something. Why do you think the eastern Europeans come here? or the Asians who came with nothing and started corner shops and small businesses etc. Some people choose to work away and come home at weekends (it's called commuting). You have one life and you either complain about deprivation and grumble about no opportunities on your doorstep or get on your executive jet and go and find something.
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 09 August 2011 20:36:25(UTC)
#24

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
Recently Redundant and Retired

We will have to agree to differ on the pyramid.

I agree about the effects of wholesale population transfers. We need to improve the bad areas.

I am not in favour of positive discrimination except in very exceptional circumstances where a reasoned case can be made. For example, discrimination that condemns blacks to poor schools, poor housing, poor jobs or no jobs will lead to trouble and expense to the rest of us. Watch the television news.

No, I do not condone rioting, looting, arson etcetera. But I believe the blame has to be shared between the perpetrators, the parents, the police, the schools and governments national and local. Sometimes the social and economic rigidities are so extreme that nothing else but positive discrimination works. People who have prosperous, fulfilled lives or foresee a better future are rather less likely to be troublesome.

CliveB

Labour market rigidity is partly to do with housing supply and prices. I doubt anyone knows how much. But making sure that movement is easer can only help. You may be surprised to know that many of us northerners do not want to live in the south. It is expensive, overcrowded, too hot... I lived down there for five years, going to school in Dunstable, working in London and then in Luton. I came back as soon as I could.

The benefit trap is vile, destructive and a product of petty means testing. Benefits should be universal and taxable through PAYE. Any Tory should love that as it would eliminate several thousand Civil Service jobs.

If you really think the benefit system is too generous try curtailing your income and capital to the levels set by the benefits system. Being on benefits guarantees a life of hardship, misery and squalor. There is something worse than being on benefits and that is being denied legitimate benefits because of state incompetence. You hear a lot about benefit cheats, especially in the gutter press that exists to make the self righteous feel good about their wilful ignorance. You don't hear about the deserving cases denied: they do not fit the political agenda.

Doing nothing or saying "the poor are always with us" and other inanities is not good enough.
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Gordon Brown
Posted: 23 January 2012 13:59:50(UTC)
#25

Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3
Dear Jeremy

John is a perfect example of why people in the UK stay in their class, because as he says they are trapped, John is most probably a single child? from a foreign country he only came to the UK, correct me if I'm wrong to avoid his "home" countries national service hence the 3 degrees the Greeks have to stay in full time education until they are 30. His country is still a military state, national service is compulsory even for draft dodgers like John, he however has escaped to the freedom of a very open minded country unlike his own and prospered, his prosperity is because he is different to the natural people of England most probably a bully he seems very opinionated and acclaims himself highly a sure way to gain success in the UK

GB

John Baxevanidis;10518 wrote:
Dear Jeremy,

Noble as your sentiments and intentions might be, I also think they are rather "pure and academic". Don't get me wrong I am a "fun" of academia, I have attended 3 Universities and equally obtained 3 degrees including 2 Master's degrees in the process. I was born in Greece and brought up by my very poor single mother. I went to a "run of the mill" state school until I was 17 where I barely graduated by the skin of my teeth. I had never made the slightest effort to study until that point in my life. At the age of 18 I came to the UK.

Now I am a "top earner" (according to the statistics), drive an expensive car, but live in a small 3 bed detached house.

I consider myself to be "from the block", yet at the same time much more cultured, educated and informed than most people I know.

I know a lot of young people who have no dreams, no aspirations and consequently they are going nowhere. However, they belong to a "social class" higher than mine

Can you connect the dots? There were no opportunities presented to me at any moment in my life. My parents and I "forced" them. Cultural and geographical idiosyncrasies play a huge role

So yes in median/average/statistical terms there are hundreds of different factors that "micro-affect" and "micro-influence" classes.

People tend to stick to where they are (in statistical terms at least) because they are not allowed by "society" to go anywhere else. This is a "macro" factor. I'm a cynic and a realist and I do not believe any time soon that "society" will ever allow equality or freedom. If you want to explore the answer to your question, you have to go back in history to understand it better.

Do you really, truly think that a different tax system, policy or law will eliminate this problem? Think with your heart not your calculator and you will probably realise that it will not make much difference.

Do the starving and the diseased have equal opportunities in this world? Why is that? What is the social and economic class of a thousand generations born in poverty, disease or war? But I know this is a different kettle of fish because I am referring to an entirely different group of people...different demographics...different "statistical groups", blah, blah, hence let's not talk about them...

This country has an educational system which is presented by society as "one of the best". Yet if you speak to foreign people in education (school or university) will testify that the level of education in England at least (as I am not aware of the rest of the UK) is very poor. Schools dish out "tripple" A's or double stars or whatever, like shops give out flyers in the streets, yet children are still just about literate in comparison with other countries. I am not just exaggerating for a humorous effect, I have met plenty of such kids and University graduate later on, who lag just as much in their abilities and knowledge. When I did my first degree in the University of Manchester most of the English students had to go to "night school" to learn basic maths before proceeding with the rest of the class. The university already had this facility, aware of the lack of knowledge. Don't get me wrong, England still breeds fantastic scientists and brilliant minds, but we are talking about the average and statistical here after all.

There is no recipe for the road to success. Academia loves boxes and statistics and graphs, etc. What makes you as a person? Your social class, your education, your salary, your parents' wealth, your manners, your empathy towards others, your religion, the car you drive? Why do we care about social mobility? (I know most do, it's rhetorical question) Our "care and concern" about social and economic mobility is what pushes people further into extremism, vanity, but also apathy. Who says that going up will make you happy? Success is measured differently by everybody.
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Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 24 January 2012 06:54:16(UTC)
#26

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316
Gordon

I agree that John comes across as unpleasant but will refrain from particularising.

I think he is plain wrong in his pessimism that "nothing will ever be done so why bother trying?". Some research in today's Scotsman shows why we must try and why the Lords are right to resist the benefit capping legislation and its malign effect on children.

Babies born into poverty are damaged forever before birth
Quote:
THE health of babies born in deprived areas could be damaged for the rest of their lives long before they have even left the womb, according to startling research from Scots scientists.

Babies born into poverty are damaged forever before birth
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Gordon Brown
Posted: 24 January 2012 09:52:29(UTC)
#27

Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3
Dear Jeremy

My belief it is the duty of succesful people to share their recipie for success with their employees and the area or part of the country in which they were raised after all they are the people with the power to do and can do something. We do see this from time to time but not enougth in my opinion. I am sure people like Duncan Balentyne do inject their capitol back into the poor areas of Scotland were he started his fortune, maybe if some of the huge amount of taxes he pays were given back to him he would spend the money more wisely than central or local government but then they were elected for just this purpose. There is a great divide which needs to be closed by those in power.

Communitys need rebuilding for people to escape misery.

Some Victorian industrialists built model villages and communities for their workers and cared for them, less gifted people had jobs and simple careers but a purpose. In my lifetime I have seen even the most hard working people give up as their employer has disintergrated due to the heavy burden of taxes and pressure to make monetary success. However in the past the wealth was in the comunity surrounding that employer or village those comunities no longer exists. People drive from miles away to work or go to a supermarket. People drive to their front door and lock themselves inside their house, bedsit whatever. Impoverished people maybe never going out staying in watching tv. The Comunity spirit and all of the benefits are in huge decline. The Lord of the manor had his role as the head of the Village. In France the Mayor keeps the community spirit alive in small communitys in the cities of France however the streets have many down and outs. As we in the modern world see them, the most primitive people in the jungles have an inbred heierachy and comunity spirt which has been lost in our flexible "modern" society yet they are happy! We should re learn our basic roots and needs from them.

Share the success return to our roots and rebuild community.
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Graham Barlow
Posted: 24 January 2012 11:10:16(UTC)
#28

Joined: 09/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 203

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My parents were decidedly middle class ,as were their parents ,and all their ancestors before them. My father was often in an impecunious position and relied on my mother to manage the scant resources we had. We lived in the most salubrious London Town on the Thames in the most priveleged place imaginable. Fortunately my mother was a very good business woman and saw the whole family through. In spite of the scant resources we all took full advantage of all the Town and surroundings had to offer ,and these were legion and in abundance. All 3 boys were Grammar School educated ,all with the School Cert. It never entered our heads that we would be unable to make a good life and living for ourselves in Britain. All 3 thrived through the second half of the 20 century, and went on to high places. Class has nothing to do with money, it is transferred to you by your parents. Your parents create the spark of ambition and aspiration, and this becomes part of you as you develop. Many of my friends from poor backgrounds in this Town who were motivated by their parents also took full advantage of all the area had to offer youngsters, with many crossing into middleclass effortlessly.. The key issue is the quality and perceptions of the parents, secondly the environment where you live is vital. Children soak up their neighbourhood like a sponge, thats where they learn. Aspiring Parents usually choose the right neighbourhood in which to anchor their family. If they cannot then they have a long battle ahead.
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Stephen Garsed on 15/08/2013(UTC)
Graham Barlow
Posted: 24 January 2012 13:05:18(UTC)
#29

Joined: 09/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 203

Thanks: 3 times
Was thanked: 33 time(s) in 22 post(s)
Jeremy, it has certainly nothing to do with money. You are born into the middle class,. Income goes up and down like any other sector of the population. In my own case, I had middle class parents. My Father's income was erratic. My Mother was the business woman who kept the finances on an even keel. We were middle class, because we were surrounded by middle class aspirations from day 1. Books, The Arts, Sport ,and engagement with societies in the Thames side Town where we lived. All 3 Boys received Grammar School education to School Cert, with wide interests drawn from the environment in which we lived. We happened to live in a beautiful priveleged London Thames side Town ,and we all took full advantage of the legion and abundant facilities for youngsters.. The ingredients necessary are first Parents who provide the spark, and motivation to create ambition and aspiration in their Children. Secondly the environment plays a vital role. Children soak up their neighbourhood like a sponge. If that has middle class overtones all the children will be more aspirational and middle class. Even to-day when I tell people where I was born. the reaction is the same " Oh really how very nice to live there". If you want to give your family a good start in life choose the place you live very carefully if you can, it makes the difference. Even the state Schools are different, with motivated pupils. The Scouts are more ambitious taking advantage of all the valuable local facilities. The place is packed with societies that cater for most interests and tastes. If you are not midddle class this environment will make a difference, believe me.
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EA
Posted: 24 January 2012 15:19:03(UTC)
#30

Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 52
Ok, so if money has nothing to do with class, what makes an individual 'middle class'?
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