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Increased taxation for the older generation?
dd
Posted: 18 January 2021 13:04:36(UTC)

Joined: 15/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 281

Keith Cobby;147131 wrote:
Stand easy, it's just another proposal floated in the media to see if it can gain any traction. Council tax should be added to income tax and stamp duty abolished (and on share transactions). A wealth tax won't be introduced because it is retrospective and therefore confiscation. Most people hate the council tax because it is very regressive and only introduced after the poll tax fiasco.



I should have read this first!
Richard T
Posted: 18 January 2021 14:12:49(UTC)

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Easyrider;147126 wrote:
IMO a wealth-tax of some sort is inevitable as is a ceiling on ISA holdings and changes to tax relief on pension contributions.
I'm not advocating these: that is not my job.
I simply consider that they are inevitable.


It won't be a popular thought, but I would suggest that perhaps the issue has been an unwise reduction in overall taxation levels over the last decades. I know many feel any tax is a bad thing, but how else can a society function? Go far enough back, to agrarian times, and you simply had to hand over part of your crop to the local landowner / lord / warlord, and just hope you had enough left to survive on. At least today we collectively set the levels and uses of our taxes, however flawed that process might seem at times.

Whether a society should expend energy on trying to be "fair" is arguably a philosophical question, but if we answer yes at all then the question of wealth matters in deciding what is "fair taxation". In the UK "The richest half of elderly households hold 90% of the wealth, with the richest 10% holding a 40%."

https://www.walesonline....it-more-wealth-12403909

With our current taxation model wealth disparity is increasing with each generation as that wealth is handed on, not because of the hard work or moral rectitude of those benefiting but because of their good luck in having one set of parents rather than another. Inheritance tax should be re-thought and its overall take from the very wealthy increased. People could still give their wealth away before death if they see fit.

On income tax, I read that the USA in through the 20th century had marginal rates in the 70-94% area, and they only fell below 50% in the 80s.

https://bradfordtaxinsti...l-Income-Tax-Rates.aspx

Did their super wealthy flee abroad or fail to create businesses and jobs? How are things looking there today?

On double taxation, we all pay double taxes. You pay tax on your earnings then pay tax on the goods and services you buy with those earnings. Is that a big deal?

On ISAs, they should never have been increased to £20,000 p.a. I say that as someone who has made full use of the limit, but it seems excessive and is effectively a benefit handed out to a very few who are already doing fine.
5 users thanked Richard T for this post.
Tim D on 18/01/2021(UTC), Vind on 18/01/2021(UTC), Martina on 18/01/2021(UTC), Easyrider on 18/01/2021(UTC), Laura Sommer on 23/01/2021(UTC)
dd
Posted: 18 January 2021 14:24:58(UTC)

Joined: 15/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 281

I can't say I like the idea of effectively forcing oldies to move from their homes, in the event that they have wealth (increased value of their property) but low income (could be due to all sorts of reasons), both of these possibly outside their control. Isn't that what could happen with a heavy wealth tax?

Freeing up larger properties could be facilitated with incentives rather than economic necessity. Then at least it would be by choice.
Keith Cobby
Posted: 18 January 2021 14:47:06(UTC)

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The Chancellor should be putting all his efforts into increasing growth and productivity. Fiddling with property taxes when you have asked the BoE to print you half a trillion pounds is an unwelcome sideshow. Now that we are out of the EU, he should cut corporation tax to less than Ireland, business and jobs would flood in. No society in history has made the poor richer by making the rich poorer.
8 users thanked Keith Cobby for this post.
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Tim D
Posted: 18 January 2021 14:58:09(UTC)

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dd;147143 wrote:
I can't say I like the idea of effectively forcing oldies to move from their homes, in the event that they have wealth (increased value of their property) but low income (could be due to all sorts of reasons), both of these possibly outside their control. Isn't that what could happen with a heavy wealth tax?


Yes, this is a recognized problem with this sort of thing.

The Wealth Tax Commission's proposals included

Quote:
Deferred payment spread over five years should be allowed in certain circumstances. For example, where the taxpayer is asset rich but cash poor, and in regard to pension wealth.


and I think there was some other stuff in it about people could always borrow against the property to pay the (one off) tax.

Other times in the past where this sort of "granny in a mansion" issue has come up it's been suggested the state would take a charge against the property to be paid upon death, before the executors/heirs get their hands on it.

All of this so politically sensitive it's hard to see it ever happening (see "However, these proposals will not be enacted" down the page at https://firevlondon.com/...l-be-taxing-for-tories/ )
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dd on 18/01/2021(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 18 January 2021 15:22:26(UTC)

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I just cant see any government getting elected that had this on their manifesto in a way that affected any more than a few percent of the population. It would be the end of a Tory government and ensure a Labour government was never elected.

I would regard it as a confiscation of assets.

Even myself with my modest total assets would work hard to protect and hide wealth from any such tax, either by moving assets abroad or converting into physical like gold. I'd rather hide money in a mattress than pay such a tax.

Under declaration would be rife and that in itself would lead to unrest as whatever "loop holes" were left were exploited to the full.

It would be akin to a middle class Poll Tax moment.


Perhaps bitcoin may have a use after all.....?
2 users thanked ANDREW FOSTER for this post.
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Richard T
Posted: 18 January 2021 17:29:40(UTC)

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There is a (Covid) bill to pay and the obvious solution is to increase income tax, whether across the board, just increasing higher marginal rates, or creating a new band - 60% above income of £500,000 p.a.? Done right - and fairly - it should surely be politically acceptable. But this government, if I'm not mistaken, guaranteed not to increase income tax, making themselves a hostage to fortune. All other taxes are more problematic and expensive to implement (except perhaps VAT, which is regressive and subdues demand). I do think that there would need to be the oft-touted updating/alignment of CGT alongside, though.
1 user thanked Richard T for this post.
dd on 18/01/2021(UTC)
Tyrion Lannister
Posted: 18 January 2021 17:40:58(UTC)

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Richard T;147175 wrote:
There is a (Covid) bill to pay and the obvious solution is to increase income tax, whether across the board, just increasing higher marginal rates, or creating a new band - 60% above income of £500,000 p.a.? Done right - and fairly - it should surely be politically acceptable. But this government, if I'm not mistaken, guaranteed not to increase income tax, making themselves a hostage to fortune. All other taxes are more problematic and expensive to implement (except perhaps VAT, which is regressive and subdues demand). I do think that there would need to be the oft-touted updating/alignment of CGT alongside, though.


Under the circumstances, I think people would accept a rise in income tax, as you say it's the obvious solution, it's also the fairest.

Sunak needs to come clean imo and say xxx is the amount of money we need to raise, giving his reasons.

I'd suggest raising the income tax at each tier by the same proportion.
4 users thanked Tyrion Lannister for this post.
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Tim D
Posted: 18 January 2021 18:05:52(UTC)

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Richard T;147175 wrote:
There is a (Covid) bill to pay and the obvious solution is to increase income tax, whether across the board, just increasing higher marginal rates, or creating a new band - 60% above income of £500,000 p.a.? Done right - and fairly - it should surely be politically acceptable. But this government, if I'm not mistaken, guaranteed not to increase income tax, making themselves a hostage to fortune. All other taxes are more problematic and expensive to implement (except perhaps VAT, which is regressive and subdues demand). I do think that there would need to be the oft-touted updating/alignment of CGT alongside, though.


Interesting article a week ago speculating that Johnson may have a window of opportunity between the vaccine being seen to be working and the size of the bill becoming fully apparent... to call a cheeky snap election: https://www.theguardian....ion-dont-bet-against-it . Would allow manifesto promises to be reformulated, although I doubt there are actually any significant tax-raising opportunities which wouldn't be met by howls of protest from backbenchers/donors/tabloids etc.
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Dennis .
Posted: 18 January 2021 18:22:47(UTC)

Joined: 26/12/2007(UTC)
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In opinion polls most people are in favour of tax increases as long as they only affect people richer than themselves. The problem then is that the further up the income scale you go the fewer people are in that sector and most of us who have been high earners only achieve high earnings for part of our careers anyway. At the end of the day the tax burden has to fall on the ordinary folk.
4 users thanked Dennis . for this post.
Julianw on 18/01/2021(UTC), Richard T on 18/01/2021(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 18/01/2021(UTC), Laura Sommer on 23/01/2021(UTC)
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