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Increased taxation for the older generation?
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Ad B
Posted: 30 December 2021 00:55:03(UTC)
#505

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philip gosling;200714 wrote:




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Strange if you work hard all your life manage to buy your own home bring up your 2 children and save a bit of money and get cancer you will die a relatively rich person. If you get dementia you will get nothing from the state and end up perhaps after 3-4 years in a home almost bankrupt.

Your neighbour living nearby worked some of the time didn't own his home but had an annual summer holiday for the family for 50 years at round £3000 per annum ended up in the same home for those with dementia and received all his treatment and accommodation free.

That is a problem in a welfare state where about 40% of the people pay no taxes and live off welfare. I could almost weep at the treatment ex forces people get despite promises - you know the ones sitting on the streets next to the gangs of beggars every town seems to attract.




You could build a whole army with the amount of straw men in there
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You have to change your life on 27/01/2022(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 07 January 2022 13:07:50(UTC)
#506

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Fascinating report from the ONS out today at
https://www.ons.gov.uk/p...in/april2018tomarch2020
(also https://www.ons.gov.uk/r...ainapril2018tomarch2020 for data)
on GB's distribution of household wealth (as of March 2020).

This is looking at "Total net wealth" including four main components:
- net property (value of residences minus mortgage debt)
- physical (household contents, vehicles)
- private pension
- net financial (savings or investments minus financial liabilities)

Quote:

Median household net wealth in Great Britain was £302,500
...
The richest 1% of households were those whose total wealth was more than £3.6 million. The least wealthy 10% of households had wealth of £15,400 or less. In this group at least half only held wealth in physical assets (with a mean value of £8,000) and almost half held more financial debt than they did financial assets.
...
Looking at economic status, households where the head was retired were the wealthiest group (median £489,300)


Wealth 2020

More detail on distribution by age/economic status/region in there.
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Fife Clive on 07/01/2022(UTC), MBA MBA on 07/01/2022(UTC), Ad B on 08/01/2022(UTC), Vind on 27/01/2022(UTC)
Fife Clive
Posted: 07 January 2022 14:36:20(UTC)
#507

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Tim D;202101 wrote:
Fascinating report from the ONS out today


Agreed Tim, what is interesting to me is that investing in financial assets is clearly a niche sport and this forum is NOT representative of the nation at large, even among the top 10% let alone the top 1%.

An educated guess looking at the age profiles of wealth and given that DC pensions and auto-enrolment are relatively new would lead me to think the pension wealth is mainly present-value of DB entitlements rather than investor-controlled assets.
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MBA MBA on 07/01/2022(UTC), Tim D on 07/01/2022(UTC), Ad B on 08/01/2022(UTC), lenahan on 09/01/2022(UTC)
MBA MBA
Posted: 07 January 2022 14:48:16(UTC)
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Fife Clive;202126 wrote:
Tim D;202101 wrote:
Fascinating report from the ONS out today


Agreed Tim, what is interesting to me is that investing in financial assets is clearly a niche sport and this forum is NOT representative of the nation at large, even among the top 10% let alone the top 1%.

An educated guess looking at the age profiles of wealth and given that DC pensions and auto-enrolment are relatively new would lead me to think the pension wealth is mainly present-value of DB entitlements rather than investor-controlled assets.


thats a really good point. So some of that wealth (DB entitlement) will evaporate in 10-30 years when the pension holder moves on, as it were.

It appears that my public sector pensions are worth 400-500k. I defintley dont feel that 400-500k richer given I cannot access teh cash, i cannot access the annual payments till i am 65-67 and then i cannot pass them on to my family.
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Tim D on 07/01/2022(UTC), Fife Clive on 07/01/2022(UTC), Ad B on 08/01/2022(UTC), lenahan on 09/01/2022(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 07 January 2022 15:51:13(UTC)
#509

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There's some detailed data on distribution of pension wealth in this latest release's spreadsheet at https://www.ons.gov.uk/p...lthwealthingreatbritain

Table 6.1 gives (for this latest 2018-2020 period):
55% No active pension
45% Any type of pension, comprised of:
- 18% Occupational defined benefit only
- 20% Occupational defined contribution only
- 3% Personal pension only
- 3% More than one type

Ten years ago (2008-2010) only 36% had "any type of pension", and the DB only : DC only numbers were 16:6 rather than this latest 18:20.

Tables 6.2 & 6.3 dig into "active" DB and DC pension wealth a bit more (I assume annuitants are taken out completely as in the age data the active DB numbers evaporate above 65+).

That gives 25% / 50(median)% / 75% quartiles' DB pension value at £18K / £60K / £195K
and DC pension value at £1K / £4K / £20K.

The DCers had better get saving! (Although as MBA points out above... the high values on DB pensions are to some extent an illusion).

A look at the accompanying age distribution data gives the impression (from where the biggest "bulge" is) that the DCers might (in aggregate) be a couple of decades "behind" the DBers... but even so, looking at the data for particular age bands shows DB pensions' 50-75% for 55-64 year olds spans £198K - £512K while for DC pension holders of that age range it's just £9K - £43K.

I smell trouble ahead.
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Tim D
Posted: 25 January 2022 21:04:42(UTC)
#510

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Good piece in the Tele on the unfairness (to DCers) of the unrealistically (since the QE era) low multiple applied to DB pensions for LTA calculations:
https://www.telegraph.co...eams-crippled-lifetime/
or https://archive.is/xMVg1
Article considers implications of some possible changes but isn't optimistic anything will get done.

(While I'm here...can't read the whole thing, but in Ireland - where apparently wealth taxes are on the agenda - someone seems to have got in a pre-emptive strike to head off any public servants' ideas that obviously their gold plated DB pensions couldn't possibly be included in the scope of such a thing: https://www.thetimes.co....ated-pensions-m7fhnpqp6 . Smooth move.)
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You have to change your life
Posted: 27 January 2022 09:47:33(UTC)
#511

Joined: 17/11/2021(UTC)
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Hi new friends.

My first point would be: this ONS graph doesn't compare relative wealth between generations.

I'm older generation but I realise how well we have been treated through our life's journey. When I was young pensioners, if they had survived two world wars, were the poor of society. It has been very easy for post-war generations to accumulate wealth. We have been blessed by circumstance and history.
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Tim D on 27/01/2022(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 27 January 2022 10:23:21(UTC)
#512

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You have to change your life;205604 wrote:
My first point would be: this ONS graph doesn't compare relative wealth between generations.

I'm older generation but I realise how well we have been treated through our life's journey. When I was young pensioners, if they had survived two world wars, were the poor of society. It has been very easy for post-war generations to accumulate wealth. We have been blessed by circumstance and history.


The ONS does have the data though... there's data on household wealth and age at https://www.ons.gov.uk/p...lthwealthingreatbritain
(also on each of the 4 categories vs age if you dig around under https://www.ons.gov.uk/r...ainapril2018tomarch2020 )

Here's the current table showing percentage of various age groups living in households in various household wealth bands (bear in mind this is the total of all 4 components of the ONS' definition of household wealth, so including pension and property wealth) :
Household wealth vs. age
(I'd interpret the surprisingly high proportion of 16-24 year olds in millionaire households as being kids living at home in a big family dwelling).

Interesting to compare that with the oldest ONS data from this survey (2006-2008):
Household wealth vs. age (2006-2008)
which perhaps shows the massive asset price inflation (including houses and notional DB pension values) of the last decade post-GFC. A million just ain't what it used to be. (I wonder how long it'll be until the ONS has to introduce a new £Xmillion+ column in future surveys?).

Interesting question of whether and how easily how many of the folks in the top left of the current chart ("under 45, under £300K in wealth") will be able to get themselves over to the bottom right ("over 65, over £1000K in wealth"). The only certainty is that they move down the chart (OK, inflation alone will move things right too... but not in real terms).
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You have to change your life on 27/01/2022(UTC), Ad B on 27/01/2022(UTC), bill xxxx on 28/01/2022(UTC), Jimmy Page on 28/01/2022(UTC)
You have to change your life
Posted: 27 January 2022 10:50:02(UTC)
#513

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Tim D;205610 wrote:
The only certainty is that they move down the chart .


The truth.



Interesting figures, Tim D, thank you for putting them up.
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Vind
Posted: 27 January 2022 12:19:29(UTC)
#514

Joined: 23/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 219
Likewise,
Fascinating stuff, Thank you Tim.
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