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Increased taxation for the older generation?
DIY Investing
Posted: 03 September 2023 10:22:00(UTC)

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Well yeah, we all think the grass is greener. I'm suprised it was only two thirds or less! I wonder how many of the respondents have been to those countries let alone lived there and spent any time there.

The truth is, all those places are pretty good places to live, if you have skills that can get you a decent living....much like the UK.

Sweden is the one that always makes me chuckle! For one, not many Brits ever actually go there! "Hmmm, Majorca or Malmo this year do you think?" Is a holiday convo most Brits aren't having! it's probably one of the least visited places on that list bar maybe China. But I suppose its easier to view somewhere as a utopia if you've never had your illusions shattered by reality I guess.

I've back packed through Scandinavia, including Sweden. And parts of it are great there's no doubt. But I reckon you need far more money to live a good life there than you do here. And, whilst there is that great big government safety net, you really don't want to fall into it! The poor places there are no less grim places to live.
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Keith Cobby
Posted: 03 September 2023 10:52:11(UTC)

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If I was to live elsewhere it would have to be warm. I agree that the UAE is a good place to work and also Saudi with their planned infrastructure spend is up and coming. You would have to hold your nose and tongue living in the middle east. The UK is one of the best places to live if you're poor and the place to have a residence if very wealthy. The big problem as I see it is the hollowing out of middle income earners, marginal tax rates are criminal particularly for one earner families. With both main parties thinking you're rich if you pay higher rate tax, it's not surprising that many professionals are looking at a higher standard of living for their families elsewhere.
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Newbie
Posted: 03 September 2023 11:15:48(UTC)

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Keith Cobby;278177 wrote:
If I was to live elsewhere it would have to be warm. I agree that the UAE is a good place to work and also Saudi with their planned infrastructure spend is up and coming. You would have to hold your nose and tongue living in the middle east. The UK is one of the best places to live if you're poor and the place to have a residence if very wealthy. The big problem as I see it is the hollowing out of middle income earners, marginal tax rates are criminal particularly for one earner families. With both main parties thinking you're rich if you pay higher rate tax, it's not surprising that many professionals are looking at a higher standard of living for their families elsewhere.

My considerations are in no particular oder
UAE, Singapore, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, USA, Canada, India is creeping up the list also.

Places which I like visiting but struggle to see myself living there permanently -
Monte Carlo, Monaco, Switzerland, Hong Kong
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DIY Investing
Posted: 03 September 2023 11:28:01(UTC)

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Keith Cobby;278177 wrote:
If I was to live elsewhere it would have to be warm. I agree that the UAE is a good place to work and also Saudi with their planned infrastructure spend is up and coming. You would have to hold your nose and tongue living in the middle east. The UK is one of the best places to live if you're poor and the place to have a residence if very wealthy. The big problem as I see it is the hollowing out of middle income earners, marginal tax rates are criminal particularly for one earner families. With both main parties thinking you're rich if you pay higher rate tax, it's not surprising that many professionals are looking at a higher standard of living for their families elsewhere.


I think Saudi is very uncomfortable for Westerners. The reports I've heard from Sales people I've worked with who had to go there on business were pretty negative, they couldn't wait to leave!

The UAE is much easier. I feel I probably have to hold my tongue in public in a UK city more so than I do in Dubai tbh. The problem is, the media only feeds us the horror stories from the UAE. Truth is, you pretty much have to be committing an act of genuine public indecency to get into trouble over there. They arrest Brits for that for sure (and so they should!).

You do have to hold your nose a bit in the UAE. There is an unofficial class system out there that can feel quite unjust. You've got the Emiratis at the very top, next you're got the Brits and Americans who run everything who are well treated and allowed to make money (although those starting a business outside the jebel Ali free zone will need an emirati sponsor, ultimately a form of corporation tax!). Then you've got the educated Indians and Lebanese, they'll struggle to make money working for someone else but some do well in business. Then at the bottom you have the Philippinos, poor Indians, and North Africans. These people do the manual labour and service jobs that sometimes borderline on slavery. These people are treated terribly, far too often by the Brits in particular I have to say.

Agree on the unfair treatment of the middle classes over here, but I think the same erosion of the middle classes is happening throughout the West. Maybe our elites squeeze them with a little more relish over here than other places due to the class system. Middle class Brits won and built the empire, but the ruling elites have always despised them, seeing them as upstarts. That has never really gone away. So there is a sort of unholy alliance between the ruling classes and the envious undeserving poor who also hate us!

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Newbie
Posted: 03 September 2023 11:59:49(UTC)

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DIY Investing;278182 wrote:
Agree on the unfair treatment of the middle classes over here, but I think the same erosion of the middle classes is happening throughout the West. Maybe our elites squeeze them with a little more relish over here than other places due to the class system. Middle class Brits won and built the empire, but the ruling elites have always despised them, seeing them as upstarts. That has never really gone away. So there is a sort of unholy alliance between the ruling classes and the envious undeserving poor who also hate us!


Well put. If you are in the so called middle class bracket you need to either move up into elite or down to the lay to be accepted and left alone. Pitt the younger (and the elder) comes to mind as well as William the bastard.

What needs to be acknowledged in the UK more widely is that the class system is alive, well and fully functioning and the surrounding noise in terms of social mobility, inclusion etc is just that, noise.

Unfortunately, the tools of taxation, government, media, education are controlled by the elites and the lay are effectively utilised by throwing a few morself and grain to disrupt any potential upward movement or usurping.

As the old adage (form an Indian origin in the Raj days) goes, a man with big ambitions cannot be kicked down officially (as there would be uproar) so you do it tactfully. Having attained a position of education, stability and a view to move up the ranks, the man buys biryanis to feed his family. But such notions and thinking is dangerous, so we impose taxes on him, such that he cannot treat them to biryanis, we take away his chicken / meat. The man still with aspirations takes measures and feels he can feed his family comfortably with vegetable biryanis with lentils (superfood), so then the lentils are taken away. The man then feels he needs to work harder foregoes the aspirations of upward mobility (giving up any training and advanced education) taking on extra jobs to get the nutritional elements for his family who now have rice and vegetables only. Next goes the vegetables and the man thinks that it is just bad times and feels he can manage on rice alone and he feels he can rise again. Finally his rice is taken away and the man is forced to look downwards and peck at the floor like the chicken he used to eat and his head gets into the habit of looking downwards and not upwards.

Eventually the elites come along and offer the man simple uncooked rice and the man with no means of cooking it as he does not have any assets having sold them all to sustain his family, trees, branches, etc to burn for fire; is forced to believe that the saviour elite is god-like and so long as he obeys and fulfills their command he and his family will at least live and that becomes his teachings to his kin is to remain in that state and forego and aspirational tendencies.
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Jonathan Friend
Posted: 03 September 2023 18:46:48(UTC)

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Sweden - very expensive, and it's capital city isn't even as interesting or fun as numerous of our provincial cities. I think a lot of Brits would, in reality, find their welfare state to be stifling and overbearing. Also, what kind of person dreams of moving abroad so they can enjoy the welfare state?

Canada - great natural beauty and some decent cities, but it is heavily unionised, the weather is extreme for half of the year in most of the country, and a can of beer that would cost a quid here will cost five there. They are quite backwards in a lot of ways - a lot of what we expect to do quickly online, like car insurance, over there you have to fill out paper forms and then queue up at an office, usually run by a provincial monopoly, so the insurance costs five times what it would here. A lot more homelessness than the UK, like the rest of North America. One thing I did find is that their dental care is leagues above ours - paid for through work contributions for most people.

New Zealand is more expensive than here for most goods and its cities are pretty boring compared to what we have. Also, very little of the historic architecture and character we take for granted here. Same applies to all of the new countries, and Germany which was destroyed. This is a major selling point of the UK for me. NZ is also just so far away from everything.

Australia - if you're into the beach culture and the scorching sun then it has its merits. It isn't as friendly a country as here in my opinion and a bit of a cultural desert. Also very expensive. Plus numerous types of predator that will rip you to pieces or poison you to death. Some very dangerous nut cases as well in parts, and plebby stupidity, similar to the US in that sense. Police are way stricter than ours.

The US - a land of many contrasts and one I love, but the better places are expensive. Some seriously dangerous parts and a sense of extremeness generally... their downtown areas, including the nicer ones such as Seattle, San Francisco, Portland (OR), going through a very bad spell will drug addicts, bums, thieves and murderers not being properly managed or punished. Defund the police innit? Insane levels of stupidity and madness likely to be encountered on a more regular basis than here. Seems pretty divided at the mo.

Germany - i think it will undergo a period of decline and degeneration. Suffering from massive waves of migration and its industries have to cope with competition from the rest of the world, which is catching up. Quite a few of its cities are a bit soulless and crap. When people were saying banks would leave London for Frankfurt I just laughed. I've been there. The likes of Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle are far better places, nevermind London.

Just my two pennies. The UK is relatively cheap for everyday goods still compared to those countries mentioned, has bags of character, the weather is annoying but not extreme, is relatively open minded and friendly, and still benefits a little bit from being physically separate from the continent yet close enough to easily access those countries. Things like sense of humour and understanding are never the same when you go to live abroad. The UK also seems to be a job making machine and those who want to work can easily find it if they try hard enough.

I think the West is being wrecked very badly by the WEF/Davos orientated idiots who run the political establishments. The values and ways that made the West great, including its freedoms for ordinary people, are being undermined. The next general election for us will be a choice between WEF agent Sunak and WEF agent Starmer. Virtually no difference. Eco socialist garbage whether we like it or not. However, all of the western countries are affected by this. I agree with what others have said about the middle classes being crushed.

I think there are things we could learn from Japan, but maybe we're just too different. Why not play to our strengths rather than turn into an everywhere/nowhere, gloablist cesspit?
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Tim D
Posted: 03 September 2023 21:01:25(UTC)

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DIY Investing;278182 wrote:
You do have to hold your nose a bit in the UAE. There is an unofficial class system out there that can feel quite unjust.


One of the strangest flights I ever took was UAE to Nepal. Most of the folks on the plane were Nepalese migrant workers returning home; presumably they're normally at the bottom strata of UAE society. And the airline staff - not sure where they come in UAE hierarchy, but they obviously considered themselves greatly superior to the Nepalese - were clearly absolutely fuming about having to wait on them and presumably the societal norms they were used to being inverted. Really weird atmosphere.
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DIY Investing on 03/09/2023(UTC)
DIY Investing
Posted: 03 September 2023 21:52:07(UTC)

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Tim D;278221 wrote:
DIY Investing;278182 wrote:
You do have to hold your nose a bit in the UAE. There is an unofficial class system out there that can feel quite unjust.


One of the strangest flights I ever took was UAE to Nepal. Most of the folks on the plane were Nepalese migrant workers returning home; presumably they're normally at the bottom strata of UAE society. And the airline staff - not sure where they come in UAE hierarchy, but they obviously considered themselves greatly superior to the Nepalese - were clearly absolutely fuming about having to wait on them and presumably the societal norms they were used to being inverted. Really weird atmosphere.


Quite likely most of those people were domestic workers like nannies and drivers. By law, their employers have to pay their airfare for a return flight home once every year. Yes I can imagine the staff on those swanky Airlines feeling rather put out!

That may seem like quite a 'nice' law and I suppose it is in a way, but there are other less nice laws! For example, their whereabouts whilst in the UAE is the legal responsibility of their employer, almost like they are property. If they go AWOL in the UAE, their employers are in trouble with the law.
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Rookie Investor
Posted: 04 September 2023 01:08:11(UTC)

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Jonathan Friend;278211 wrote:

Canada - great natural beauty and some decent cities, but it is heavily unionised, the weather is extreme for half of the year in most of the country, and a can of beer that would cost a quid here will cost five there. They are quite backwards in a lot of ways - a lot of what we expect to do quickly online, like car insurance, over there you have to fill out paper forms and then queue up at an office, usually run by a provincial monopoly, so the insurance costs five times what it would here. A lot more homelessness than the UK, like the rest of North America. One thing I did find is that their dental care is leagues above ours - paid for through work contributions for most people.

The US - a land of many contrasts and one I love, but the better places are expensive. Some seriously dangerous parts and a sense of extremeness generally... their downtown areas, including the nicer ones such as Seattle, San Francisco, Portland (OR), going through a very bad spell will drug addicts, bums, thieves and murderers not being properly managed or punished. Defund the police innit? Insane levels of stupidity and madness likely to be encountered on a more regular basis than here. Seems pretty divided at the mo.


Good comments.

I can also vouch for your experience about US/Canada, having visited a couple of the cities you list recently. Have seen a lot of homelessness and drug use in cities in both countries, which seems to have got a lot worse since I visited the same cities only 5 years prior.

Actually feels quite dangerous so I think I won't be back until things improve. Also its quite dirty in these cities, think the homelessness does not help. Seems like nearly all cases of homelessness is due to drug use which is sad.

I feel quite priviliged to live in the uk and that too in one of the wealthiest areas in the uk. We have our issues but we have a lot of good going for us compared to other countries. Even with the NHS, whilst it seems to have got worse in recent years, I have had good to excellent experience using them for various acute issues.
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Keith Clunk
Posted: 04 September 2023 05:14:07(UTC)

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DIY Investing;278168 wrote:
Best bet is to make one's money in some western shithole like the UK or US, then take that money and go and live somewhere nice in emerging Europe like Croatia, or Emerging Asia like Thailand. Money stretches a long way there, but you have to make it before you get there!


This ^^

During my mid-30's (1998/99) I took an 18 month sabbatical and circumnavigated the globe backpacking, spending the bulk of time in the SEAsia/Pacific region. Of the 22 countries visited Thailand and New Zealand stood head and shoulders above the rest and my hope was to make a choice and one day retire there.

After divorcing during the mid-noughties I worked and saved hard and ultimately retired at 49yo to SEAsia, settling in Thailand. 12 years later I am still here. Mortgage paid-off 6 years ago and house rental income covers my living costs and my SIPP is still accumulating.

I consider myself lucky, but it didn't all happen by itself.

Canada has always looked lovely, but I've never been. USA I have no desire to ever step foot in again.

The UK just seems sad these days, but so do many other western countries. Social media seems the cause for much of the decline, something I play very little part in.

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