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Economic Growth-Are lunatics running the economy?
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 31 May 2012 13:06:31(UTC)
#51

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Although overall government spending has barely moved that is because while they are busy sacking people and cutting capital expenditure on infrastructure they are also having to spend a lot more on benefits for the unemployed. Cutting capital expenditure is usually stupid and short sighted. In the midst of a recession it is lunacy. Get people working and welfare spending will fall while tax revenues rise.

For decades I have racked my brains to understand why so many people choose not to see this logic. There are no sane, sensible or factual arguments against it. Tories create misery and squalor. A friend recounts the story of sitting around a table with colleagues discussing what they would do with a lottery win. One said that he would use it to pick a stranger and totally destroy their life. Asked why, he said, "Because I could". After that he ate on his own.
Prof Eman
Posted: 31 May 2012 17:28:04(UTC)
#52

Joined: 08/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 480

Jeremy and others
Jeremy it seems that The Guardian agrees with you, please have a look at to-day's article
How to kickstart the UK economy-at zero cost to 99% of us - by Michael Meacher.
Also contains some startling figures on wealth/income distribution.
Prof Eman
Posted: 01 June 2012 09:32:30(UTC)
#53

Joined: 08/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 480

It seems that more and more calls are being made for growth rather than austerity.
BBC News business to-day 18291523-British Chamber of commerce cuts growth forecast.
The British Chamber of Commerce(BCC) has slashed its forecast for economic growth this year, from 0.6 to 0.1.
Unemployment to increase to 8.2% of workforce.
States "We need growth and we need it now "
Otherwise the economy will "bump along the bottom" for longer than expected.
Clive B
Posted: 01 June 2012 15:08:30(UTC)
#54

Joined: 25/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 508

Meacher's argument is simply b.s. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/31/how-to-kickstart-uk-economy)

he says
"In the short term, the most feasible approach is to impose a capital gains tax charge at the current rate of 28% on the topmost layers of wealth, the £155bn gains amassed by the 0.003% over the last three years"

The 0.003% he's talking about are the richest 1,000 in the population and the £155bn gain the claimed increased (by the Sunday Times, not HMRC) in their wealth since 2008.

But, there's no "capital gain" as we know the term today - i.e. when selling an asset that attracts CGT.

I'm sure all (or nearly all) of these 1,000 people have businesses. It's the value of the businesses that have increased since the low point in 2008.

On what grounds is he going to say to these 1,000 business "based on no current law - but maybe a retrospective one I've just made up - please give me 28% of the increase in the value of your business since my arbitrary starting low point of 2008" ?

Where would they get the 28% from ? Sell shares, crashing the value of 1,000 firms ? Would cause a massive backlash against the UK from businesses, government having no respect for the law.

Plus, it would never work. Before they could get the law passed, the businesses would relocate their head offices abroad (rightly so) and avoid this.
Clive B
Posted: 01 June 2012 15:11:51(UTC)
#55

Joined: 25/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 508

Jeremy

"Get people working and welfare spending will fall while tax revenues rise.

For decades I have racked my brains to understand why so many people choose not to see this logic."

How about - because lots of people prefer to live a cushy life on benefits rather than get a job, even when they're more plentiful.

In the style of JB "for decades I have racked my brains to understand why people support a benefits system that makes working so unattractive and is so open to abuse"
Prof Eman
Posted: 01 June 2012 15:50:55(UTC)
#56

Joined: 08/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 480

Clive B
There is abuse in every segment of income group.
Why do you always highlight the bottom/benefits end? Why not some of the others.
Clive B
Posted: 01 June 2012 16:37:29(UTC)
#57

Joined: 25/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 508

Prof Eman

Name (say) three abuses at the top end and I'll tell you where I stand on them

I'll throw in two for free

a) people avoiding stamp duty on houses due to being owned by corporations
A: idiotic law, people were bound to exploit the rule (wasn't even a loophole). Happy for all properties to be treated equally, BUT stamp duty should be much much lower as it impedes labour mobility

b) "dodgy" charities, where the claim is it's just a family firm
A: people who run dodgy charities should be jailed

Clive
p.s. Meacher's argument is still b.s.
Prof Eman
Posted: 01 June 2012 19:53:57(UTC)
#58

Joined: 08/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 480

Clive B
c). Use of service companies to reduce individual tax paid at the upper end.
d) Variety of schemes the banks use to reduce tax such as the recent one taken up by HMRC against Barclays.
There are many others
Prof Eman
Posted: 01 June 2012 20:18:42(UTC)
#59

Joined: 08/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 480

Clive B
For more information about taxation at the upper end,
-please go to citywire website
-click opinion
-in top RH corner Search Citywire type in Tax Avoidance.
it will come up with a number of articles on the subject.
Jeremy Bosk
Posted: 01 June 2012 23:43:28(UTC)
#60

Joined: 09/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,316

Clive B

Anybody who believes that living on benefits is cushy should try it. The red tape is horrendous, the allowances when finally obtained are pitiful. The rules are full of weasel words that let the authorities "deem" and "assume" . This allows them to lie and cheat with false assumptions that cannot be challenged because reasons and evidence are never supplied. Benefit claimants are denied justice like political prisoners in totalitarian states.

I know this is the current situation from listening to others recount their experiences. I was on benefits briefly in the early eighties recession and again in the early nineties recession. It was bad then and is worse now.

I don't expect you to change your mind because I say so and I don't expect you to do any investigating for yourself. Believing the sort of lies put out by the Daily Mail and the rest of the gutter press is just so convenient for so many people.

Tories believe that:

If they are OK then everyone else should be.

If other people fail to live up to that belief, it is because they are bad people.

If they help the poor only encourages bad behaviour and idleness.







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