Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error
Personal Assets Trust
+ Reply to discussion
Options
smg8
Posted: 29 January 2022 09:20:27(UTC)
#314

Joined: 26/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 3,366

Thanks: 5704 times
Was thanked: 13289 time(s) in 2751 post(s)
Genuine question KL, would you feel comfortable having 25% gold in a portfolio?

Is there a viable substitute?
Back to top Quote
1 user thanked smg8 for this post.
King Lodos on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Aminatidi
Posted: 29 January 2022 09:41:32(UTC)
#316

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Thanks: 7151 times
Was thanked: 11412 time(s) in 3831 post(s)
smg8;206087 wrote:
Genuine question KL, would you feel comfortable having 25% gold in a portfolio?

Is there a viable substitute?


I can only answer for myself but the answer is yes but I wouldn't feel comfortable seeing it as a line item saying "gold".

It's why I like all-weather because if I look at the share price at any given time I don't know what's pulled it up or down or what's going on under the hood.

I know if I did a manual all-weather I'd hate going in and seeing gold down 40% even if something else was up 40%.

Not unique to gold I'd probably be the same if I went and bought a TIPS fund or whatever else.
Back to top Quote
2 users thanked Aminatidi for this post.
smg8 on 29/01/2022(UTC), King Lodos on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Rob B
Posted: 29 January 2022 10:40:59(UTC)
#315

Joined: 07/10/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,701

Thanks: 3431 times
Was thanked: 6747 time(s) in 1430 post(s)
smg8;206087 wrote:
Genuine question KL, would you feel comfortable having 25% gold in a portfolio?

Is there a viable substitute?

Clearly I'm not KL but I think it's all down to personal circumstance smg8...

If I was sat on a portfolio of £5m+
If I was unlikely to add to that pot ever again
If I wanted to protect my wealth from disappearing
If I was thinking multi-generational

I would be very comfortable with 25% in gold as I'd be investing much more like Tony Deden. If I'd made my pile I'd be loathed to lose it.

Latest Edelweiss Presentation
Back to top Quote
 |  Edit by user
6 users thanked Rob B for this post.
Tom 123 on 29/01/2022(UTC), Aminatidi on 29/01/2022(UTC), smg8 on 29/01/2022(UTC), Gary J on 29/01/2022(UTC), Lindisfarne on 29/01/2022(UTC), King Lodos on 29/01/2022(UTC)
smg8
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:05:31(UTC)
#324

Joined: 26/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 3,366

Thanks: 5704 times
Was thanked: 13289 time(s) in 2751 post(s)
I only ask because the chart looks quite volatile over 20 years.

In USD it seems to drop from $1900 to $1100 between 2011 and 2016. Just wondering whether that impact on portfolio volatility is what’s expected, very much aware I must be missing something!
Back to top Quote
1 user thanked smg8 for this post.
Rob B on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Aminatidi
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:12:24(UTC)
#329

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Thanks: 7151 times
Was thanked: 11412 time(s) in 3831 post(s)
I don't think you're missing anything but if you're only looking at gold in isolation I guess you're not seeing the role it might play in a portfolio?

Harry Browne Portfolio

Some of the info in there on what different asset classes are doing at different times and the way the whole thing gently gets on doing its thing is fascinating.

But I'd hate seeing some of them doing it as individual asset classes in my account.
Back to top Quote
2 users thanked Aminatidi for this post.
Rob B on 29/01/2022(UTC), smg8 on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Rob B
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:30:34(UTC)
#325

Joined: 07/10/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,701

Thanks: 3431 times
Was thanked: 6747 time(s) in 1430 post(s)
smg8;206163 wrote:
I only ask because the chart looks quite volatile over 20 years.

In USD it seems to drop from $1900 to $1100 between 2011 and 2016. Just wondering whether that impact on portfolio volatility is what’s expected, very much aware I must be missing something!

It is pretty volatile at times but I think holding gold should be measured over decades rather than years - hence my thoughts with the 'ifs' above. As PIs we tend to look at things in smaller timeframes than HNWIs and if anyone dares to look back too long they can be met with 'the past is no guide....'

Over the long-term it's been proven to be a diversifier. It's been very useful when things fall in between 'recession and armageddon' as it 'tends' to do the opposite of other elements in your portfolio. Some love it, some hate it. Some accept it should be 10% max in a portfolio. It should be called 'yellow marmite'.

I'd be keen to hear BD's view on gold and the weight held in his clients portfolios. Or Alastair Kendall who was around a year ago who wrote "I manage family money as well as my own. Both pools feature gold, and although both pools are very overweight gold (over 50%), the gold is held in very different ways. My super cautious family pool is held largely in PNL, gold ETFs (I like the custodial comfort of the Sprott offering here and am a bit suspicious of the bullion banks and their sometimes opaque involvement in COMEX), Franco Nevada and Wheaton Precious Metals and some physical coinage. No miners, which over the years have proved to be a poor investment relative to Gold."
Back to top Quote
3 users thanked Rob B for this post.
smg8 on 29/01/2022(UTC), Robin on 29/01/2022(UTC), Aminatidi on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Robin
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:48:08(UTC)
#326

Joined: 06/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,281

Thanks: 5343 times
Was thanked: 3730 time(s) in 1023 post(s)
Rob B;206168 wrote:
smg8;206163 wrote:
I only ask because the chart looks quite volatile over 20 years.

In USD it seems to drop from $1900 to $1100 between 2011 and 2016. Just wondering whether that impact on portfolio volatility is what’s expected, very much aware I must be missing something!

It is pretty volatile at times but I think holding gold should be measured over decades rather than years - hence my thoughts with the 'ifs' above. As PIs we tend to look at things in smaller timeframes than HNWIs and if anyone dares to look back too long they can be met with 'the past is no guide....'

Over the long-term it's been proven to be a diversifier. It's been very useful when things fall in between 'recession and armageddon' as it 'tends' to do the opposite of other elements in your portfolio. Some love it, some hate it. Some accept it should be 10% max in a portfolio. It should be called 'yellow marmite'.

I'd be keen to hear BD's view on gold and the weight held in his clients portfolios. Or Alastair Kendall who was around a year ago who wrote "I manage family money as well as my own. Both pools feature gold, and although both pools are very overweight gold (over 50%), the gold is held in very different ways. My super cautious family pool is held largely in PNL, gold ETFs (I like the custodial comfort of the Sprott offering here and am a bit suspicious of the bullion banks and their sometimes opaque involvement in COMEX), Franco Nevada and Wheaton Precious Metals and some physical coinage. No miners, which over the years have proved to be a poor investment relative to Gold."




Have you retained your Amati Strategic Metals, Rob, or was it a victim of your tidy? I hold at 4% and my goodness it is a sort term rollercoaster.
Back to top Quote
1 user thanked Robin for this post.
Rob B on 29/01/2022(UTC)
smg8
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:55:11(UTC)
#330

Joined: 26/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 3,366

Thanks: 5704 times
Was thanked: 13289 time(s) in 2751 post(s)
Thanks both, genuinely really interesting looking at some of these “proper” portfolios rather than just what funds are hot right now.

Sorry to ask another question but do we know why CGT don’t hold gold beyond the 1% I can see in their factsheet?
Back to top Quote
 |  Edit by user
1 user thanked smg8 for this post.
Aminatidi on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Jesse M
Posted: 29 January 2022 13:56:24(UTC)
#328

Joined: 30/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,471

Thanks: 10262 times
Was thanked: 3794 time(s) in 1126 post(s)
smg8;206163 wrote:
I only ask because the chart looks quite volatile over 20 years.

In USD it seems to drop from $1900 to $1100 between 2011 and 2016. Just wondering whether that impact on portfolio volatility is what’s expected, very much aware I must be missing something!


Hi smg8
Dont know if you remember my post from about a year ago, but you might find some answers there where I questioned the same thing:

https://moneyforums.city...-get-it.aspx#post148242


The context of my original post was;

Please help me understand Gold (I already know it's yellow and shiny).

The following is based on the price of the SGLN ishares physical gold.
Picked for low holding fee 0.15% for this discussion.

Looking over approx. 10 years. I see that on $10000:

30th Aug 2011 the price was 12406 USD +24%
7th Jan 2021 12760 +27%
And we know that it did go briefly higher than that.

However:
Between 2012 and up to around 2018/19 it was mostly negative, even hitting -29% in 2015.

If we Inflation adjust the US Dollar, 10000 since 2010 it is about USD 11945 in 2021.
Based on average USD inflation rate of around 1.63%

- gold which you pay to hold,
- pays no dividend
- mostly negative return in about 7 or 8 of last 10 years
- can be extremely speculative as this covid pandemic has shown
- Just beat inflation and that's only since 2019

I feel like I am missing some vital information here why people justify Gold in a portfolio, or this is about timing your purchase?
Back to top Quote
2 users thanked Jesse M for this post.
smg8 on 29/01/2022(UTC), Rob B on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Aminatidi
Posted: 29 January 2022 14:02:30(UTC)
#331

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Thanks: 7151 times
Was thanked: 11412 time(s) in 3831 post(s)
smg8;206172 wrote:
Thanks both, genuinely really interesting looking at some of these “proper” portfolios rather than just what funds are hot right now.

Sorry to ask another question but do we know why CGT don’t hold gold beyond the 1% I can see in their factsheet?


Spillers view in summary is that they can analyse TIPS better.

https://www.ii.co.uk/ana...ks-markets-2022-ii522392
Back to top Quote
1 user thanked Aminatidi for this post.
Rob B on 29/01/2022(UTC)
40 Pages«Previous page3031323334Next page»
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets