Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Personal Assets Trust
Ad B
Posted: 03 February 2022 14:27:22(UTC)

Joined: 20/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 375

JayW;207271 wrote:
Strangways;207263 wrote:
PNL's large Microsoft and Alphabet holdings (12% in total) look like a good move. 21% in cash!


This worries me because they could equally have looked like a bad move. I'm not sure that such a concentrated high-conviction position in a handful of stocks is what I want from my wealth-preserving funds. In fact it isn't, so I hold CGT and RICA but am continuing to avoid PNL.


Their conviction is based on the huge amounts of free cashflow generated, the fact that Microsoft sorted out anti trust issues and possible regulatory interference years ago, and that cloud computing has acres and acres of growth left. The likely amounts of cash that Microsoft will generate in the future dwarf even the free cash flow they get today. Minimal cap ex required.

If you could only buy one business...

But I agree still high conviction.
King Lodos
Posted: 03 February 2022 15:03:34(UTC)

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11,046

Thanks: 6166 times
Was thanked: 30411 time(s) in 8333 post(s)
Jesse M;207207 wrote:
King Lodos;206192 wrote:
Aminatidi;206097 wrote:
smg8;206087 wrote:
Genuine question KL, would you feel comfortable having 25% gold in a portfolio?

Is there a viable substitute?


I can only answer for myself but the answer is yes but I wouldn't feel comfortable seeing it as a line item saying "gold".

It's why I like all-weather because if I look at the share price at any given time I don't know what's pulled it up or down or what's going on under the hood.

I know if I did a manual all-weather I'd hate going in and seeing gold down 40% even if something else was up 40%.

Not unique to gold I'd probably be the same if I went and bought a TIPS fund or whatever else.


The great thing with Invest Engine – psychologically – is you don't really notice what individual holdings are doing .. You log in, and immediately see your portfolio as a whole.

You have to click on the individual assets to see how they're doing, and it detaches you from it .. You realise how small a 17% (even 25%) position is, when it's cratering and your portfolio's holding up fine



Hi KL, thanks for the link I opened an account and had a look around. Do like the DIY portfolio tool.
Was thinking about leaving my pot with ii and forward investing into IE however there is actually so much choice in terms of portfolio construction I wonder if I might end up messing about a lot more vs just having mutual funds with ii.
I guess a lot depends on personal goals and market outlook but it's tempting to attempt to construct an all weather cheap etf portfolio but tbh I wouldn’t know where to start.


You could try their portfolio generator – it'll be based on Efficient Frontiers and presumably as smart as anything you'll get from an IFA (at least).

I'd use it as an excuse to try the tools at Portfolio Visualizer, and I use BlackRock's Capital Market Assumptions, on the whole, to fill in future expected returns data:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com

Mostly I'll use Backtest Asset Allocation (Table View) and Efficient Frontiers (Historic and Forecasted) and Portfolio Optimisation .. I think Yale used Monte Carlo simulations a bit .. The tools don't do it for you – you have to work out whether they're giving you the kind of answers you want, and how to nudge them in the right direction.

My portfolio is basically:
50% market exposure
50% recession and inflation protection

The protection's going to be mostly TIPS and gold (as Bridgewater say), then you can put REITs in there (held up well in the 70s), or Consumer Staples (tend to hold up well in recessions) – or both.

I'd say it's pretty efficient for a moderately aggressive portfolio .. I also think it's fun to mess around with and micromanage a bit .. My pondering switching REITs for Staples makes barely any difference on a backtest, or to efficiency .. It's much more about overall balance and risk exposure
3 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 04/02/2022(UTC), Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC)
Trudy Scrumptious
Posted: 04 February 2022 03:02:01(UTC)

Joined: 10/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 169

Thanks: 1136 times
Was thanked: 391 time(s) in 112 post(s)
King Lodos;207284 wrote:
Jesse M;207207 wrote:
King Lodos;206192 wrote:
Aminatidi;206097 wrote:
smg8;206087 wrote:
Genuine question KL, would you feel comfortable having 25% gold in a portfolio?

Is there a viable substitute?


I can only answer for myself but the answer is yes but I wouldn't feel comfortable seeing it as a line item saying "gold".

It's why I like all-weather because if I look at the share price at any given time I don't know what's pulled it up or down or what's going on under the hood.

I know if I did a manual all-weather I'd hate going in and seeing gold down 40% even if something else was up 40%.

Not unique to gold I'd probably be the same if I went and bought a TIPS fund or whatever else.


The great thing with Invest Engine – psychologically – is you don't really notice what individual holdings are doing .. You log in, and immediately see your portfolio as a whole.

You have to click on the individual assets to see how they're doing, and it detaches you from it .. You realise how small a 17% (even 25%) position is, when it's cratering and your portfolio's holding up fine



Hi KL, thanks for the link I opened an account and had a look around. Do like the DIY portfolio tool.
Was thinking about leaving my pot with ii and forward investing into IE however there is actually so much choice in terms of portfolio construction I wonder if I might end up messing about a lot more vs just having mutual funds with ii.
I guess a lot depends on personal goals and market outlook but it's tempting to attempt to construct an all weather cheap etf portfolio but tbh I wouldn’t know where to start.


You could try their portfolio generator – it'll be based on Efficient Frontiers and presumably as smart as anything you'll get from an IFA (at least).

I'd use it as an excuse to try the tools at Portfolio Visualizer, and I use BlackRock's Capital Market Assumptions, on the whole, to fill in future expected returns data:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com

Mostly I'll use Backtest Asset Allocation (Table View) and Efficient Frontiers (Historic and Forecasted) and Portfolio Optimisation .. I think Yale used Monte Carlo simulations a bit .. The tools don't do it for you – you have to work out whether they're giving you the kind of answers you want, and how to nudge them in the right direction.

My portfolio is basically:
50% market exposure
50% recession and inflation protection

The protection's going to be mostly TIPS and gold (as Bridgewater say), then you can put REITs in there (held up well in the 70s), or Consumer Staples (tend to hold up well in recessions) – or both.

I'd say it's pretty efficient for a moderately aggressive portfolio .. I also think it's fun to mess around with and micromanage a bit .. My pondering switching REITs for Staples makes barely any difference on a backtest, or to efficiency .. It's much more about overall balance and risk exposure


What I struggle to understand with your all weather portfolio is the same as my confusion with PNL, CGT & RICA, which is how can TIPS or gold protect against inflation AND recession.. Surely recession is going to lead to deflation. I'm heavily invested in those 3 all weather funds, but all three seem to be betting on inflation. If we get a big recession, as I'm expecting, surely TIPS will tank..... I guess you just have to delegate the asset allocation decision to them but I believe PNL & CGT will drop in a market crash, to some extent. I'm keeping a large amount of cash for a possible crash and not relying entirely on All Weather's asset allocation to escape the sell-off.
6 users thanked Trudy Scrumptious for this post.
King Lodos on 04/02/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 04/02/2022(UTC), J-san on 04/02/2022(UTC), Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC), sam velo on 04/02/2022(UTC), kim shillinglaw on 11/02/2022(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 04 February 2022 06:31:04(UTC)

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11,046

Thanks: 6166 times
Was thanked: 30411 time(s) in 8333 post(s)
Trudy Scrumptious;207356 wrote:
What I struggle to understand with your all weather portfolio is the same as my confusion with PNL, CGT & RICA, which is how can TIPS or gold protect against inflation AND recession.. Surely recession is going to lead to deflation. I'm heavily invested in those 3 all weather funds, but all three seem to be betting on inflation. If we get a big recession, as I'm expecting, surely TIPS will tank..... I guess you just have to delegate the asset allocation decision to them but I believe PNL & CGT will drop in a market crash, to some extent. I'm keeping a large amount of cash for a possible crash and not relying entirely on All Weather's asset allocation to escape the sell-off.


You can have a deflationary or inflationary recession .. Inflationary (stagflation) is probably the greater risk to portfolios and wealth.

So in the really crude way I'd put it, if we had a deflationary recession, central banks could start buying assets again without risking overheating the economy .. And then your longer duration TIPS would probably be getting a good short-term bump up .. And gold appears to hedge deflation quite well too.

The problem with an inflationary recession is you can't use looser monetary policy to fight it without risking an inflationary spiral – so in the 1970s (when we had stagflation) gold was one of the few bright spots .. One assumption is that global debt's so high, whatever way things go, it's unlikely we'll want significantly positive real yields for long, and that sort of puts a cap on how much TIPS are likely to lose vs how much they hedge inflation.

I think the dilemma is that, if we get a few years of 5-7% inflation, that cash is really losing value.

TIPS can be volatile, but they're probably one of the only assets where you can know the real return you're going to get if held to duration – so even on today's negative real yields, there's a protection cash isn't giving you, despite volatility (part of the problem is we just don't notice the volatility in cash, because it's what we're measuring everything in) .. I wonder if we shouldn't all be holding 5-10% in commodities?
9 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), J-san on 04/02/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 04/02/2022(UTC), Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC), Guest on 04/02/2022(UTC), Logic Prophets on 04/02/2022(UTC), kim shillinglaw on 11/02/2022(UTC), stephen_s on 14/02/2022(UTC), Chans on 17/02/2022(UTC)
Marc Pseudo
Posted: 04 February 2022 07:48:02(UTC)

Joined: 01/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 265

Thanks: 177 times
Was thanked: 444 time(s) in 177 post(s)
TIPS offer some protection against deflation because they have a deflation floor - at maturity you are paid the inflation-adjusted value or the original value, whichever is greater.
6 users thanked Marc Pseudo for this post.
Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), J-san on 04/02/2022(UTC), Jesse M on 04/02/2022(UTC), Sara G on 04/02/2022(UTC), kim shillinglaw on 11/02/2022(UTC), LondonYank on 12/02/2022(UTC)
Logic Prophets
Posted: 04 February 2022 08:26:46(UTC)

Joined: 23/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,636

Thanks: 4064 times
Was thanked: 4012 time(s) in 1176 post(s)
I keep reading comments about Gold being a good hedge against inflation like most people seem to think that it was in the 70’s but I am not convinced.

The collapse of the ‘Bretton Woods’ system in 1971-73, the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, massive military spending by the US, etc had more of an influence on the gold price in the 70’s than inflation itself.
It is far too simplistic to compare the movement in the price of gold during the last period of high inflation and conclude that it will be a good inflation hedge this time around.

The price of Gold was already extremely high before we entered this inflationary period whereas it was stable at around $36 for many years leading into the 70’s.

It is more likely that the Gold price will rise in the event of a war in the Ukraine or conflict in the South China Sea!
We already have inflation at high levels and it doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact on the price of gold.



4 users thanked Logic Prophets for this post.
King Lodos on 04/02/2022(UTC), Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), Jimmy Page on 04/02/2022(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 04 February 2022 08:52:28(UTC)

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11,046

Thanks: 6166 times
Was thanked: 30411 time(s) in 8333 post(s)
Logic Prophets;207363 wrote:
I keep reading comments about Gold being a good hedge against inflation like most people seem to think that it was in the 70’s but I am not convinced.

The collapse of the ‘Bretton Woods’ system in 1971-73, the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, massive military spending by the US, etc had more of an influence on the gold price in the 70’s than inflation itself.
It is far too simplistic to compare the movement in the price of gold during the last period of high inflation and conclude that it will be a good inflation hedge this time around.

The price of Gold was already extremely high before we entered this inflationary period whereas it was stable at around $36 for many years leading into the 70’s.

It is more likely that the Gold price will rise in the event of a war in the Ukraine or conflict in the South China Sea!
We already have inflation at high levels and it doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact on the price of gold.


I think that's right .. Gold obv. tends to have an inverse relationship with the dollar, so it's likely to have some inflation protection (and really long-term, things like the cost of a house, in gold, haven't changed much) – but like TIPS, it drops when we do things to fight inflation, like raising rates.

Gold's probably best thought of as a hedge for when things go wrong, and people don't want their capital in dollars or risk assets .. My Bloomberg Commodity Composite ETF's proven an effective inflation hedge recently – I'd be interested in why CGT, RICA, PNL don't use broad commodities exposure, with negative yields on TIPS


4 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Logic Prophets on 04/02/2022(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC), stephen_s on 04/02/2022(UTC)
Logic Prophets
Posted: 04 February 2022 11:36:17(UTC)

Joined: 23/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,636

Thanks: 4064 times
Was thanked: 4012 time(s) in 1176 post(s)
King Lodos;207370 wrote:
Logic Prophets;207363 wrote:
I keep reading comments about Gold being a good hedge against inflation like most people seem to think that it was in the 70’s but I am not convinced.

The collapse of the ‘Bretton Woods’ system in 1971-73, the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, massive military spending by the US, etc had more of an influence on the gold price in the 70’s than inflation itself.
It is far too simplistic to compare the movement in the price of gold during the last period of high inflation and conclude that it will be a good inflation hedge this time around.

The price of Gold was already extremely high before we entered this inflationary period whereas it was stable at around $36 for many years leading into the 70’s.

It is more likely that the Gold price will rise in the event of a war in the Ukraine or conflict in the South China Sea!
We already have inflation at high levels and it doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact on the price of gold.


I think that's right .. Gold obv. tends to have an inverse relationship with the dollar, so it's likely to have some inflation protection (and really long-term, things like the cost of a house, in gold, haven't changed much) – but like TIPS, it drops when we do things to fight inflation, like raising rates.

Gold's probably best thought of as a hedge for when things go wrong, and people don't want their capital in dollars or risk assets .. My Bloomberg Commodity Composite ETF's proven an effective inflation hedge recently – I'd be interested in why CGT, RICA, PNL don't use broad commodities exposure, with negative yields on TIPS




I did wonder about the same thing on your last point but I really do see commodities as more of cyclical play.

This is the way I see it:
high demand/short supply = booming prices = booming profits = higher inflation = squeezed household budgets = recession = lower demand/high supply = lower prices…. repeat.

I would like to think that if the managers of the funds you mentioned (and I hold) were going to have exposure to commodities, that they would have been there much earlier in the cycle.

Edited ..
King Lodos
Posted: 04 February 2022 14:39:59(UTC)

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11,046

Thanks: 6166 times
Was thanked: 30411 time(s) in 8333 post(s)
Logic Prophets;207418 wrote:
King Lodos;207370 wrote:
Logic Prophets;207363 wrote:
I keep reading comments about Gold being a good hedge against inflation like most people seem to think that it was in the 70’s but I am not convinced.

The collapse of the ‘Bretton Woods’ system in 1971-73, the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, massive military spending by the US, etc had more of an influence on the gold price in the 70’s than inflation itself.
It is far too simplistic to compare the movement in the price of gold during the last period of high inflation and conclude that it will be a good inflation hedge this time around.

The price of Gold was already extremely high before we entered this inflationary period whereas it was stable at around $36 for many years leading into the 70’s.

It is more likely that the Gold price will rise in the event of a war in the Ukraine or conflict in the South China Sea!
We already have inflation at high levels and it doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact on the price of gold.


I think that's right .. Gold obv. tends to have an inverse relationship with the dollar, so it's likely to have some inflation protection (and really long-term, things like the cost of a house, in gold, haven't changed much) – but like TIPS, it drops when we do things to fight inflation, like raising rates.

Gold's probably best thought of as a hedge for when things go wrong, and people don't want their capital in dollars or risk assets .. My Bloomberg Commodity Composite ETF's proven an effective inflation hedge recently – I'd be interested in why CGT, RICA, PNL don't use broad commodities exposure, with negative yields on TIPS




I did wonder about the same thing on your last point but I really do see commodities as more of cyclical play.

This is the way I see it:
high demand/short supply = booming prices = booming profits = higher inflation = squeezed household budgets = recession = lower demand/high supply = lower prices…. repeat.

I would like to think that if the managers of the funds you mentioned (and I hold) were going to have exposure to commodities, that they would have been there much earlier in the cycle.

Edited ..


I imagine CGT would say that, like gold, it's the difficulty of valuing commodities that makes them reluctant to have a meaningful allocation .. So TIPS really cover that side of things.

Long-term, gold's been a pretty good analog for commodities – not so much since the GFC:

https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/2/24/saupload_calafia_beach_2010_large_gold_vs_crb.jpg

But then Ray Dalio's classic All Weather portfolio had this allocation to gold + commodities .. I'm obviously interested how he'd change this now, given his views (and everyone's) on bonds:

http://gr8nesseveryday.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Dalio-Chart.jpg


7 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Tim D on 04/02/2022(UTC), Sara G on 04/02/2022(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 04/02/2022(UTC), Logic Prophets on 04/02/2022(UTC), stephen_s on 04/02/2022(UTC), Guest on 11/02/2022(UTC), MikeT on 11/02/2022(UTC)
JayW
Posted: 11 February 2022 10:52:26(UTC)

Joined: 25/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 358

Thanks: 59 times
Was thanked: 838 time(s) in 264 post(s)
A bit of a broadside at Troy/PNL from Ruffer LLP?

"...many think there is safety in the mega-tech stocks such as Apple and Microsoft. But we’re not so sure."

https://www.ruffer.co.uk...paign=2022-02-green-line
3 users thanked JayW for this post.
Mr GL on 11/02/2022(UTC), Strangways on 11/02/2022(UTC), Andy JR on 11/02/2022(UTC)
40 Pages«Previous page3334353637Next page»
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets