Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Fixed rate mortgage term
Mr_Jimbo
Posted: 08 November 2022 16:42:23(UTC)
#1

Joined: 10/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 60

Thanks: 73 times
Was thanked: 112 time(s) in 40 post(s)
Hi All,

My 2 year fixed mortgage deal is due for renewal in early 2023 so I’m currently trying to find a new deal. I’m obviously kicking myself I didn’t opt for a longer term fix when rates were much lower. However now I’m trying to learn from my mistake and go for a longer fix.

My broker has sent me both a 5 year fix and a 10 year fix to review. They are similar rates (5.4% vs 5.1%). For those on the forum in a similar situation, what length of term are you opting for? I realise this question is essentially a bet on future rate hikes and whether the BoE holds its nerve in the face of recession.

Although both quoted rates are higher than we have seen over the past 5-10 years, historically they don’t seem too bad. Obviously the 10 year fix has higher penalties for early repayment which is an extra risk to consider.

Thanks
2 users thanked Mr_Jimbo for this post.
Raj K on 08/11/2022(UTC), Thrugelmir on 08/11/2022(UTC)
Raj K
Posted: 08 November 2022 16:52:28(UTC)
#2

Joined: 22/04/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,819

Thanks: 6461 times
Was thanked: 6656 time(s) in 2091 post(s)
This may sound strange but you may want to consider the option of going with another 2 year fixed or a BoE tracker, ( are they doing discounted tracker?). If interests rates peak next year and then slowly go down and stabalise you may be kicking your self for tying into a five or ten year fixed.

Its all about where you think things will go and your peace of mind. I have a 5 year fixed (for an investment property) coming to the end in October 2023 and will consider the option of a 2 year fixed or tracker to bridge the gap until things settle down.
5 users thanked Raj K for this post.
Keith Cobby on 08/11/2022(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 08/11/2022(UTC), Mr_Jimbo on 08/11/2022(UTC), Chris1986 on 11/11/2022(UTC), MBA MBA on 16/12/2023(UTC)
Keith Cobby
Posted: 08 November 2022 17:01:30(UTC)
#3

Joined: 07/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,063

Thanks: 5965 times
Was thanked: 12445 time(s) in 3857 post(s)
My 5 year fix ends this month and I have refixed for 2 years as I expect rates to be falling by then, or if not I will consider paying it off. Personally, I haven't and wouldn't fix for longer than 5 years.
4 users thanked Keith Cobby for this post.
ANDREW FOSTER on 08/11/2022(UTC), Mr_Jimbo on 08/11/2022(UTC), Raj K on 08/11/2022(UTC), xiang zou on 23/11/2022(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 08 November 2022 17:14:32(UTC)
#4

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,329

Thanks: 3258 times
Was thanked: 7886 time(s) in 3267 post(s)
Perhaps some historical context will help you. In July 2007 base rate was 5,50%. Mortgage rates weren't far above this level as lenders leveraged their lending power up. GFC followed with it the collapse and withdrawal of many lenders from the market. Northern Rock had around a 20% market share of new business.

QE and a period of exceptionally low base rates has followed. Allowing time for banks to deleverage their balance sheets and the nationalised mortgage books to be repaid/returned to the private sector.

Base rate remains low by historical standards. Unlikely we'll ever return to the levels of the past decade or so.

Your mortgage should be portable should you decide to move. With a 10 year mortgage switching to a new lender could be expensive. Forcing you possibly to have to borrow more from your existing lender should you decide to upsize.

How important is having a fixed monthly outgoing to you? The longer the term the more peace of mind you'll have.

Any possibly reason why you might sell up with transferring the mortgage to a new property? Thereby incurring penalties.

You can of course overpay the mortgage , thereby reducing the interest charged, and correspondingly the debt owed. At the end of the term this could result in a better LTV with better options being available.
2 users thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
Mr_Jimbo on 08/11/2022(UTC), Raj K on 08/11/2022(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 08 November 2022 17:20:17(UTC)
#5

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Thanks: 6012 times
Was thanked: 7026 time(s) in 2603 post(s)
This is a minefield to navigate and it depends on a whole of factors, such as job/pay security, likelihood of moving, dependents, not least inflation etc etc.

I took out mortgages, one every year for the last 3 years + remortgaged my main home - fixed them all for 5 years - I would have gone longer if I had been offered one. However I always maintain a LTV of 75% or better, at the same token, I also have around a lot of accessible cash. At the same time I do not rely on any income from my properties, rather they are just a store of wealth for me for which the tenants simply baby-sit the asset for future generations.

Prior and run upto the GFC I was also on fixed rates for 5 years. However during and after the GFC I took out whatever facility I had available - ie maxed out (on the basis the providers said 'use it or lose it'), and I picked up some bargins such as base + 0.19, base +0.69, base + 1.09 ( I still hold these).

My rationale for fixed rates is that I base it on what I can afford and then not worry too much about interest rate movements. That way I am pretty confident that the properties are secure and worst case scenario I can sell one and realise the cash to navigate through rough tides.

I am also confident that even if my income fell by 50% then my outgoings can be covered and there be food on the table and a rug over my body. As a colleague mentioned a long time ago, I can supposedly live a frugal life if I chose and perhaps there is grain of truth in there.

Generally Interest rates tend to rise when there in inflation and the bank wants to cool the economy. However, when there is inflation, pay tends to also go up, and if you have savings then these should also follow suit. BUT

We have runaway inflation at the moment and the Bank is dilly dall-ying as opposed to tacking it. This is likely to mean that inflation will be around for a prolonged period and rates move upwards slowly for a longer period. In-turn banks are likely to cream off the newfound gravy train for a while yet. Thus if you can afford to fix it,, then go for fixing it for a long time-frame. You will be buying yourself security.

Before anyone gets on a high horse about greedy landlords - I am a super rate-taxpayer !!! and the properties I purchase are not in your typical first time buyer territory.
5 users thanked Newbie for this post.
Thrugelmir on 08/11/2022(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 08/11/2022(UTC), Mr_Jimbo on 08/11/2022(UTC), Raj K on 08/11/2022(UTC), Lesley J on 09/11/2022(UTC)
Mr_Jimbo
Posted: 08 November 2022 19:03:08(UTC)
#6

Joined: 10/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 60

Thanks: 73 times
Was thanked: 112 time(s) in 40 post(s)
Thanks for the insightful responses all

Raj K;247032 wrote:
This may sound strange but you may want to consider the option of going with another 2 year fixed or a BoE tracker, (are they doing discounted tracker?).

Yes, discounted trackers still exist and Martin Lewis has suggested to consider them. I’m not ruling out a last minute switch to one if a gap between fixed and variable rates significantly widens over the coming months before my renewal

Thrugelmir;247037 wrote:
In July 2007 base rate was 5,50%. Mortgage rates weren't far above this level as lenders leveraged their lending power up.
Base rate remains low by historical standards. Unlikely we'll ever return to the levels of the past decade or so.

Yes, this is my worry. If mortgage rates stay quite far above the base rate, unlike 2007, then further increases will be painful.

Thrugelmir;247037 wrote:
Your mortgage should be portable should you decide to move

Yes, I have outgrown my current place. However it’s in a good school catchment and the kids are starting school so I probably need to wait 2 years to move somewhere bigger. Most mortgages are portable, but you need to take the additional borrowing with the same lender…which of course might not be the most competitive rate.

Newbie;247039 wrote:
Inflation will be around for a prolonged period and rates move upwards slowly for a longer period. In-turn banks are likely to cream off the newfound gravy train for a while yet. Thus if you can afford to fix it,, then go for fixing it for a long time-frame. You will be buying yourself security

My current LTV is 50% but considering my desire to move home in a couple of years, I will likely take out more borrowing (probably circa doubling my mortgage). Maybe a way to hedge the decision is to take a 10 year fix now for current borrowing, and then accept whatever is on offer in 2 years or the additional borrowing. That way there is a balance between current security and future rate movements
1 user thanked Mr_Jimbo for this post.
Newbie on 08/11/2022(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 08 November 2022 19:36:19(UTC)
#7

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Thanks: 6012 times
Was thanked: 7026 time(s) in 2603 post(s)
Few words of caution re portability.

I was stung last year when I tried to port a mortgage, rather than pay the penalty for early exit. However much to my dismay, despite all things being equal (in fact better in terms of rental income and slightly better LTV) the lender (Santander to pe precise) threw a curveball. The mortgage could be ported, however the amount would need to be lower. Santander explained that the calculation they used when offering me the original mortgage was only applicable to new customers and that given I was porting it, I was not classified as a new customer and thus the rental threshold calculations would be different.

Thus when porting you need to factor in the calculation metrics and criteria. Furthermore some these far fetched lenders have all sorts of quirks re 2nd lending or even second charge on properties. I have found that mainstream ones tend to be good for this. On my 0.19 above base I managed take out more (2nd mortgage) via a new application though the calculations re affordability, LTV etc can be laborious and annoying.
Thrugelmir
Posted: 08 November 2022 19:43:03(UTC)
#8

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,329

Thanks: 3258 times
Was thanked: 7886 time(s) in 3267 post(s)
Newbie;247052 wrote:
However much to my dismay, despite all things being equal (in fact better in terms of rental income and slightly better LTV) the lender (Santander to pe precise) threw a curveball.


"Rental income" suggests that this wasn't as straightforward as you suggest. Lenders criteria can change overnight, no curved balls involved. For the majority life is far simpler.
1 user thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
Newbie on 08/11/2022(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 08 November 2022 20:00:49(UTC)
#9

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,818

Thanks: 6012 times
Was thanked: 7026 time(s) in 2603 post(s)
Thrugelmir;247056 wrote:
Newbie;247052 wrote:
However much to my dismay, despite all things being equal (in fact better in terms of rental income and slightly better LTV) the lender (Santander to pe precise) threw a curveball.


"Rental income" suggests that this wasn't as straightforward as you suggest. Lenders criteria can change overnight, no curved balls involved. For the majority life is far simpler.

I will stick by my suggestion, perhaps you can seek to expand upon your line of fact-checking.
My wife could use the old multiple and get the same mortgage as she is classed as a new customer !!!
But I could not port the same amount, being an existing customer !!
That is how we ended up buying another house in her name by sheer chance (unplanned), - I sold mine and got the buyer to pay for the charge.
Thus exactly the same figures, but for my wife (and son had we wanted to) it was a green light, but for me a no go. Had I been a new customer I could also get that amount but not as a existing customer.


"Lenders criteria can change overnight" - that I am aware of and accept, as is the fact that affordability and LTV needs to be assessed again at time of porting, but the above issue is a new one which I came across in over multiple decades of trading in properties.
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 09 November 2022 19:55:41(UTC)
#11

Joined: 26/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4,470

Thanks: 4548 times
Was thanked: 8771 time(s) in 3091 post(s)
You are presenting it as an all or nothing choice, but I’d have thought there would be lenders that were content to split the mortgage, say part variable rate, part fixed rate.

I have a year left on a 5 year fixed rate. I will likely pay half off with cash and keep the other half on variable rate in expectation of rates falling in late 2023/2024.

Personally I doubt we are going back to pre GFC. Inflation is already being tamed and WILL fall. The UK has got used to low rates and higher rates produce a lot of pain and increasing pain with time for people and businesses. As recession sets in and inflation plummets I expect pressure to slowly reduce rates again from mid/late 2023. But that is only my guess.

When deciding how much to borrow then LTV is relevant for what rates you can get. But also consider what savings rates are. If you can borrow at 5% and get 5% in a cash savings account then you could run your own offset mortgage for part of what you borrow.

House prices are probably going to dip impacting LTV calculations.

Personally I wouldn’t fix for 10 years at 5%, I have always fixed for 5 years feeling this gives meaningful forward visibility without making big bets on future rates. I do remember paying I think 7.5% for a 5 year fix back in the 90’s but personally doubt we are going back to that.
2 users thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Keith Cobby on 09/11/2022(UTC), Mr_Jimbo on 11/11/2022(UTC)
3 Pages123Next page
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets