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Digital Currencies / Wallet
Newbie
Posted: 12 December 2022 18:58:48(UTC)
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Was with a few friends over the weekend and the topic of digital currencies somehow crept into the conversation (do not as me how, over a weekend) and a comment made by one of them got me thinking.

There appears to be a big drive for digital currency / wallet ( I am not talking about things such as Bitcoin as per se but money in general, hence digital wallets). Our own PM appears to be pushing digital and it seems that plenty of countries and tech players are pushing for it.

The comment went along the lines of ..

You start with £50 note, go into a restaurant, and pay for your meal. The restaurant pays its staff with the £50 note, The staff members then goes to the barber and pays for a haircut with that note. The barber then uses that note to pay his local butchers for some steak. The butcher goes into the supermarket to buy buy the groceries with that note. The supermarket then deposits that note into the bank. The you go to bank and upon withdrawal realise that you have just been handed back that same note a week later.

The thing is that it is still £50 and you can go through unlimited transactions and it will still be £50 at the end.

However now take the situation that you go into the restaurant and pay with a digital currency/wallet, the seller (restaurant in this case) will be charged transaction fees of approx 3% or £1.50. Then for every further transaction a charge of £1.50 is likely to be incurred. Thus £1.50 for the barber, £1.50 for the butcher, £1.50 for the supermarket. Therefore after 30, £50 transactions all that will be left is £5. In other words, £45 has just disappeared (technically to the bank, but they just have a number on the screen) and £5 left for circulation.

So what does this mean for the public and the future ?
Thoughts much appreciated
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Tim D on 12/12/2022(UTC)
Tony Peterson
Posted: 12 December 2022 19:16:49(UTC)
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Probably means that banks might be a great investment again.

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Newbie on 12/12/2022(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 12/12/2022(UTC)
Keith Cobby
Posted: 12 December 2022 19:17:46(UTC)
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Isn't this just the same as transaction charges on debit/credit cards, they are digital wallets.
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Newbie on 12/12/2022(UTC), Thrugelmir on 12/12/2022(UTC), stephen_s on 30/06/2024(UTC)
guantou
Posted: 12 December 2022 20:43:03(UTC)
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We are actually many years behind asian countries in this particular field, I would estimate 95% of Chinese pay for goods and services via a phone app. Since covid the Chinese have viewed handing over dirty contaminated cash as disgustingly unhealthy, most shops now refuse to handle cash. The coffee shop I use is a cash credit card free service, phone apps only.

Chinese apps are far superior to ours, Alipay and Wechat pay are superb. I would suggest embracing and profiting from this technology with a suitable ETF, its on the rise whether we like it or not, so may as well jump in and make a few quid as the west play catchup.
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Tim D on 12/12/2022(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 12/12/2022(UTC), Dexi on 13/12/2022(UTC), Newbie on 13/12/2022(UTC), stephen_s on 30/06/2024(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 12 December 2022 21:20:44(UTC)
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Newbie;250548 wrote:


The supermarket then deposits that note into the bank. The you go to bank and upon withdrawal realise that you have just been handed back that same note a week later.






The supermarket will incur a charge for depositing cash at the bank. Commercial accounts operate very differently to those of retail customers. Banking is far from free. Banks would be out of business if it were.
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Mostly Retired on 12/12/2022(UTC), Tim D on 12/12/2022(UTC), Newbie on 13/12/2022(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 12 December 2022 21:23:45(UTC)
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guantou;250560 wrote:
We are actually many years behind asian countries in this particular field, I would estimate 95% of Chinese pay for goods and services via a phone app. Since covid the Chinese have viewed handing over dirty contaminated cash as disgustingly unhealthy, most shops now refuse to handle cash. The coffee shop I use is a cash credit card free service, phone apps only.

Chinese apps are far superior to ours, Alipay and Wechat pay are superb. I would suggest embracing and profiting from this technology with a suitable ETF, its on the rise whether we like it or not, so may as well jump in and make a few quid as the west play catchup.


Bet the authorities don't allow profit gouging when it comes to transaction fees though. Removing cash from the system also takes away much black market activity.
Tim D
Posted: 12 December 2022 22:25:56(UTC)
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Newbie;250548 wrote:
You start with £50 note, go into a restaurant, and pay for your meal. The restaurant pays its staff with the £50 note, The staff members then goes to the barber and pays for a haircut with that note. The barber then uses that note to pay his local butchers for some steak. The butcher goes into the supermarket to buy buy the groceries with that note. The supermarket then deposits that note into the bank. The you go to bank and upon withdrawal realise that you have just been handed back that same note a week later.


That's a bit of an idealistic story though. Unless the restaurant and the barber and the butcher are paying their employees, landlord and suppliers in cash too, at some point they're going to be taking large amounts of cash to the bank and the bank will charge them a fee for handling it. There's also some not insignificant time and expense associated with cash-based businesses managing cash registers and securing cash.

The British Retail Consortium (BRC) does an interesting annual survey of payments costs for UK retailers; AFAIK the latest one is 2021's:
https://brc.org.uk/media...ayments-survey-2021.pdf
That shows a big jump in cash costs in 2020. While cash remains cheaper per transaction, when you take into account that average cash transactions are smaller, that reckons retailers paid 0.27% to handle cash vs. 0.26% on debit cards.

Maybe no optimal solution; I find it interesting that there are both cash only and cashless only small businesses within a short walk of where we live.

I'm dubious about the idea some new digital currency/wallet tech is going to come along and significantly change this situation. Realistically, that's what your bank account + debit card already provides quite efficiently, and as the BRC document linked above points out, further cost reductions could come from the Payment Systems Regulator simply flexing its existing powers. (Some recent stirring - https://www.psr.org.uk/n...money-on-card-services/ - but apparently from the "nudge" school that thinks just encouraging people to shop around will improve things... and we've seen how well that worked with energy suppliers.)
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Thrugelmir on 12/12/2022(UTC), Newbie on 13/12/2022(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 12 December 2022 22:38:22(UTC)
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Tony Peterson;250550 wrote:
Probably means that banks might be a great investment again.



Or maybe digital currency exchanges.

..or then again...


But that aside, shops are charged for paying in cash and getting cash out. So the premise is wrong to start with.

Also, who has £50 notes! 🤗
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Thrugelmir on 12/12/2022(UTC), Newbie on 13/12/2022(UTC)
MarkSp
Posted: 13 December 2022 05:40:27(UTC)
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We could all bank using something like SDRs. Your money is a slice of a currency basket and can be used anywhere in the world.

We could do it tomorrow but...........that sort of monetary union would require some degree of economic and political union


So.....it wont happen
3 users thanked MarkSp for this post.
Thrugelmir on 13/12/2022(UTC), Newbie on 13/12/2022(UTC), Tim D on 30/12/2022(UTC)
John Bran
Posted: 09 January 2023 12:52:15(UTC)
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Thrugelmir;250564 wrote:
guantou;250560 wrote:
We are actually many years behind asian countries in this particular field, I would estimate 95% of Chinese pay for goods and services via a phone app. Since covid the Chinese have viewed handing over dirty contaminated cash as disgustingly unhealthy, most shops now refuse to handle cash. The coffee shop I use is a cash credit card free service, phone apps only.

Chinese apps are far superior to ours, Alipay and Wechat pay are superb. I would suggest embracing and profiting from this technology with a suitable ETF, its on the rise whether we like it or not, so may as well jump in and make a few quid as the west play catchup.


Bet the authorities don't allow profit gouging when it comes to transaction fees though. Removing cash from the system also takes away much black market activity.


I think it was Sweden which uses the least cash in Europe it might have been Finland but either way tax take has increased dramatically. How many builders get paid in cash? Not many will not when the vast majority use cards.
Also if I get a cheque I use the 1st direct app to photograph it, so don't have to goto a bank to pay it in. HSBC is the same.
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ANDREW FOSTER on 09/01/2023(UTC)
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