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SF100
Posted: 10 June 2023 10:23:30(UTC)
#1

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Who you gonna call?
Bustfixers!

Woking Council in a predicament.
What else is going on 'out there'?
Who next?

https://www.google.co.uk...ruptcy-with-12bn-deficit
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Tim D on 10/06/2023(UTC), Guest on 28/06/2023(UTC)
SF100
Posted: 28 June 2023 12:05:30(UTC)
#2

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I'm sure you've all seen it, but if not...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66039170

"Thames Water is under pressure over its performance and reportedly struggling under £14bn of debt."

Bust Fixers (tax payers) to the ready...
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Sara G on 29/06/2023(UTC)
Taltunes
Posted: 28 June 2023 12:18:07(UTC)
#8

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SF100;271394 wrote:
I'm sure you've all seen it, but if not...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66039170

"Thames Water is under pressure over its performance and reportedly struggling under £14bn of debt."

Bust Fixers (tax payers) to the ready...


And Jeremy Hunt wants our pension schemes to invest more in infrastructure …
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4 users thanked Taltunes for this post.
Tim D on 28/06/2023(UTC), SF100 on 28/06/2023(UTC), Jimmy Page on 28/06/2023(UTC), Lemanie on 29/06/2023(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 28 June 2023 13:29:44(UTC)
#10

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
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Taltunes;271395 wrote:
SF100;271394 wrote:
I'm sure you've all seen it, but if not...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66039170

"Thames Water is under pressure over its performance and reportedly struggling under £14bn of debt."

Bust Fixers (tax payers) to the ready...


And Jeremy Hunt wants our pension schemes to invest more in infrastructure …


More concerning is that it shows that the financial health of the private markets isn't that great either. Sudden rise in interest rates is beginning to hit home. Plenty of dominoes are going to fall yet.
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Taltunes on 28/06/2023(UTC), SF100 on 28/06/2023(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 28/06/2023(UTC), Guest on 29/06/2023(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 28 June 2023 17:19:05(UTC)
#3

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SF100;271394 wrote:
I'm sure you've all seen it, but if not...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66039170

"Thames Water is under pressure over its performance and reportedly struggling under £14bn of debt."

Bust Fixers (tax payers) to the ready...


It's a private company.

Can't see how taxpayers would be on the hook for the 14 billion of debt. Its the people owed money will likely get the kicking. Not sure who that will be.

I'd speculate they aren't the only utility in the same boat.

If the yare insolvent, as look likely, it's a golden opportunity to take a chunk of the water industry back into National Ownership at no cost. But will that fit with Sunak's ethos? They can sort it out and privatise it again later. Double tap!
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Tim D on 28/06/2023(UTC), Dentmaster on 29/11/2023(UTC), John Bran on 13/05/2024(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 28 June 2023 18:58:41(UTC)
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ANDREW FOSTER;271435 wrote:
It's a private company.

Can't see how taxpayers would be on the hook for the 14 billion of debt. Its the people owed money will likely get the kicking. Not sure who that will be.


Hmmm... I'd like this to be true but Google tells me Thames Water debt "is owned by a consortium of pension funds and sovereign wealth funds". Wouldn't be surprised if a taxpayer-funded bailout was delivered with much wringing of hands about "think of the pensioners" and "proving Britain is still a great destination for inward investment". We'll see. And in a "normal" company liqidation the senior bond holders would basically have the power to take control of company assets. If that'd lead to taps running dry in London and the south-east... that'd be used as another reason there's no alternative to bailing 'em out.
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Dexi on 29/06/2023(UTC)
Nigel Harris
Posted: 28 June 2023 19:54:21(UTC)
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I don't like the idea of bailing out shareholders, let alone foreign ones!

Quote:
Thames Water is owned by Kemble Water Holdings Ltd, a consortium formed in 2006 and formerly owned by Macquarie Group's European Infrastructure Funds. The largest shareholders are Canadian pensions group OMERS (23%), the Universities Superannuation Scheme (19.7%), BT Pension Scheme (13%), the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority (9.9%), the China Investment Corporation (8.7%), and the Kuwait Investment Authority (8.5%). Thames Water is regulated under the Water Industry Act 1991 and is working to secure the extra funds needed to support its turnaround.0 The company is still trying to raise £1bn from shareholders, and AlixPartners has been drafted in to advise on the company's operational turnaround plans.


Source: https://search.brave.com...lders%3F&source=web

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Tim D on 28/06/2023(UTC), Guest on 29/06/2023(UTC), Sara G on 29/06/2023(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 28 June 2023 20:47:37(UTC)
#12

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Nigel Harris;271447 wrote:
The largest shareholders are...


That's the equity holders. Equity holders getting wiped out is just par for the course. But what do we know about who owns the mountain of debt?
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Nigel Harris on 28/06/2023(UTC), Lemanie on 29/06/2023(UTC)
ANDREW FOSTER
Posted: 28 June 2023 21:29:14(UTC)
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Tim D;271443 wrote:
ANDREW FOSTER;271435 wrote:
It's a private company.

Can't see how taxpayers would be on the hook for the 14 billion of debt. Its the people owed money will likely get the kicking. Not sure who that will be.


Hmmm... I'd like this to be true but Google tells me Thames Water debt "is owned by a consortium of pension funds and sovereign wealth funds". Wouldn't be surprised if a taxpayer-funded bailout was delivered with much wringing of hands about "think of the pensioners" and "proving Britain is still a great destination for inward investment". We'll see. And in a "normal" company liqidation the senior bond holders would basically have the power to take control of company assets. If that'd lead to taps running dry in London and the south-east... that'd be used as another reason there's no alternative to bailing 'em out.


The shares aren't publicly traded so I think that makes it a private company. It's just the shares are privately owned by those institutions.

Even if bond holders took control if they can't run the company (which they likely can't) then a government special administration would still take over as I understand. As a regulated company I don't think it can be 'liquidated'.

Special Administration is a specific procedure. I can't say I know the details but I don't think it's a bailout as such. It doesn't (as I gather) take on the debts.

It looks like there is the usual web of complications....

Thames Water Utilities Finance plc
Thames Water Limited
Thames Water Utilities Limited
Thames Water (Kemble) Finance plc
Thames Water Utilities Holdings Limited
Kemble Water Eurobond Limited
...and more....

What a mess....

The actual regulated company is Thames Water Utilities Limited but its not clear in the news which entity has all the debt.

Here is a list of known shareholders... not much there to worry the UK government.

Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System 31.777%
Universities Superannuation Scheme 19.711%
British Columbia Investment Management Corporation 8.706%
Infinity Investments SA 9.900%
Hermes GPE 8.699%
China Investment Corporation 8.688%
Queensland Investment Corporation 5.352%
Aquila GP Inc. 4.995%
Stichting Pensioenfonds Zorg en Welzijn 2.172%
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Sara G on 29/06/2023(UTC)
Taltunes
Posted: 28 June 2023 21:41:26(UTC)
#13

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There ‘s “A quick guide to Thames Water’s serpentine capital structure” on the ft website but again it doesn’t make it clear who the bond holders are.

The price of the bonds has fallen from around 85p to around 50p, distressed territory.
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