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The R Word
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 16 December 2023 09:14:15(UTC)
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What do we think about the portents for recession now in the UK ?

BoE Governor talking tough still compared to the Fed.
Has inflation ever been conquered without a recession ?
Does an equity rally come as recession gets going (or only when there are green shoots of post recession recovery (2025?) ?
Will the autumn 2024 earnings season fall well below 2023 (but is that already factored into equities) ?

Any insights into the cloud pattern in the crystal ball before us ?
1 user thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
SF100 on 16/12/2023(UTC)
Pre Ka
Posted: 16 December 2023 09:44:25(UTC)
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What do we think about the portents for recession now in the UK ?
no recession, stimulus coming from government, too many people still employed with cash

BoE Governor talking tough still compared to the Fed.
they just have to until inflation is looking as good as the US.

Has inflation ever been conquered without a recession ?
The US seems to have done it, looks like it was a supply issue and inflation would have come down anyways, it just took a bit longer than central banks thought.

Does an equity rally come as recession gets going (or only when there are green shoots of post recession recovery (2025?) ?
markets are forward looking so will move up before green shoots are even visible.

Will the autumn 2024 earnings season fall well below 2023 (but is that already factored into equities) ?
most companies have anticipated a recession was coming last year so they became lean and mean in anticipation, as a recession never materialized, earnings should be good next year.

Any insights into the cloud pattern in the crystal ball before us ?
danger is economy actually starts firing on all cylinders and the anticipation of rate cuts do not materialize and may even need another rate hike to slow the overheating!!
4 users thanked Pre Ka for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 16/12/2023(UTC), ANDREW FOSTER on 16/12/2023(UTC), J-san on 16/12/2023(UTC), Jesse M on 16/12/2023(UTC)
Wave Action
Posted: 16 December 2023 14:14:28(UTC)
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Well a year ago the BOE estimated a full year and more of UK recession . Then it didn't happen so changed their tune. Maybe relax and let it play out in early months of 2024. ?
Most of the data comes from the US and it's clear to see after a pause in rate rises there's often been a recession. Again it doesn't have to play out ? Grey shaded areas on chart are downturns.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...mat=jpg&name=medium

A rally into rate rises is common but when there's cuts it can get nasty. Rates are increased when the FED thinks the economy can handle it just as we've seen for the last year or so. JYell has spoken this week of rate cuts as inflation is falling . I doubt she'd say it was in relation to a looming recession . Projections of poor performance as rates are cut is based on the data below. Let's see. ? So you've been warned .

https://realinvestmentad...ds-and-Bear-Markets.jpg

Often considered a bell weather. .Shipping giant Maersk.

https://www.ft.com/conte...6-461e-89dc-80b82d30d0a1
2 users thanked Wave Action for this post.
NoMoreKickingCans on 16/12/2023(UTC), Guest on 17/12/2023(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 16 December 2023 14:29:00(UTC)
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Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
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Falling oil price will deflate GDP. Recessions aren't all bad.
Newbie
Posted: 16 December 2023 16:09:12(UTC)
#5

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,819

Maybe not a global recession - indeed oil prices coming down and USD still king.
Possible UK recession - Energy prices going up, Imported food, £ today has no real global dominance, politics a mess but politicians galore.
NoMoreKickingCans
Posted: 16 December 2023 17:45:45(UTC)
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Quote:
So you've been warned

That chart looks ominous.US market high. My worry is if the US goes down it takes other markets down with it including UK etc
1 user thanked NoMoreKickingCans for this post.
Guest on 17/12/2023(UTC)
Thrugelmir
Posted: 16 December 2023 18:06:23(UTC)
#7

Joined: 01/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5,330

If people are paying down debt and saving rather than spending. Is no bad thing. GDP is infinite. Inflation after all is a tax. Post war economic theory in the Western World appears to be heading towards a crunch point. Printed money is borrowed from someone. That someone sets the price they'll lend at. For the US the clock is now ticking down.
2 users thanked Thrugelmir for this post.
Guest on 17/12/2023(UTC), DIY Investing on 07/04/2024(UTC)
Wave Action
Posted: 18 December 2023 21:46:07(UTC)
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What the analysts think for 2024. Soft to mild recession. Inflation back to 2% . Gradual cuts in rates. SP 500 range from 4300 -5100 . There you have it . Let's see ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...at=jpg&name=900x900

Hard and soft landings since1950.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...at=jpg&name=900x900

Inverted yield curve offset 15 months forward. If that makes sense ? Well there's a link to falls in GDP.

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...at=png&name=900x900

I've been following a few on twitter for years now and one especially has been linking events since the pandemic with 1920-21 known as the silent depression .

https://en.wikipedia.org...on_of_1920%E2%80%931921

https://fee.org/articles...ver-heard-of-1920-1921/

https://econreview.berke...depression-of-1920-1921/
Tim D
Posted: 18 December 2023 23:59:40(UTC)
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QD picked over a recent outlook from JPM a few days ago
https://quoteddata.com/2...arly-christmas-present/

On "R-word" they have
Quote:
JPM note that today’s high returns on cash deposits are likely to disappear as we get closer to a recession. JPM’s base case for the global economy is a mild recession, with consumer spending running out of steam, businesses pulling back on investment and weakening labour markets leading to a mild recession that helps to bring inflation back towards target. In such a scenario, cash returns will fall, reflecting the decline in interest rates as central banks adopt less restrictive policies. Whereas it will only be a moderate downside for stocks, it will be positive for bonds (on the back of falling interest rates).

However, the markets are, in JPM’s view, currently pricing in a ‘soft landing’, whereby growth remains close to, or modestly below, trend across developed markets, while inflation falls back towards 2% and interest rates are gradually lowered to a neutral level without substantial cuts. Such an environment would keep to the current trend, with asset prices range bound, but cash materially underperforming. The only scenario in which cash could outperform is in the dreaded event of stagflation, with sticky inflation forcing interest rates to remain high, and the global economy heading into a deeper recession. However, given the views of the markets and JPM, indications are that such a scenario is unlikely, and investors will likely need to look to be more proactive with their savings.


There's a nice graphic too:
Take yer pick...
Take yer pick and place yer bets... (if it's "a bit in all of them, including cash"... well that's the Permanent Portfolio)

I see ZH's daily roundup can be counted on to remind us of a bit of history this evening though:
You are here
(See e.g https://www.vox.com/futu...r-shock-recession-1970s if unfamiliar with the episode this is referring back to).
3 users thanked Tim D for this post.
Wave Action on 19/12/2023(UTC), Newbie on 19/12/2023(UTC), Dentmaster on 07/04/2024(UTC)
SF100
Posted: 19 December 2023 13:17:42(UTC)
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NoMoreKickingCans;289849 wrote:
Any insights into the cloud pattern in the crystal ball before us ?
From where I am, I believe the amount of money spent by neighbours on this years external Christmas decorations for the house (and NOW THE GARDEN AS WELL) should suffice to see the UK through the forseeable future unscathed
3 users thanked SF100 for this post.
Tim D on 19/12/2023(UTC), Chalky W on 19/12/2023(UTC), Dentmaster on 07/04/2024(UTC)
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