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Aminatidi
Posted: 11 February 2025 08:52:22(UTC)

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Absolutely non taken - it's an option I'm considering as I can see pros and cons with just about anything and everything I consider right now.
paul armstrong
Posted: 12 February 2025 19:38:56(UTC)

Joined: 14/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,366

I hold both PNL and Capital Gearing. Been thinking along similar lines. Why not just hold sovereign bonds, IL bonds, cash and gold as defensive elements and cut out the middleman. Gilts can be held directly and could set up a ladder if so motivated.
ben ski
Posted: 12 February 2025 20:21:15(UTC)

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paul armstrong;334150 wrote:
I hold both PNL and Capital Gearing. Been thinking along similar lines. Why not just hold sovereign bonds, IL bonds, cash and gold as defensive elements and cut out the middleman. Gilts can be held directly and could set up a ladder if so motivated.


For me, when I've looked into which platforms I can trade and hold gilts in (let alone TIPS), it's always cost more than the 0.5-ish% management fee to do that. Plus, at the moment, you're buying these trusts on a discount that represents, in CGT's case, about 8-9 years of fees.

It's really about whether you want to have to make those decisions about duration and relative value when they come up, and if you're able to take advantage of those moments, like the Truss crash.

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Sara G
Posted: 12 February 2025 20:48:43(UTC)

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I've not read the whole thread, so apologies if this has been said already.

Aside from not having to take decisions on when / what to rebalance (the risk of me getting it wrong is significantly higher than these managers messing up), holding PNL (and CGT) in an unsheltered account makes life much simpler in terms of taxation. I don't want to be triggering gains in an unpredictable way (or possibly at all).

NB I do hold Gilts and Gold separately, but the former are low coupon Gilts in lieu of savings accounts, and the latter is a core holding as I want more exposure to Gold than I get with PNL. I'd be more likely to trim it to crystallise a loss to offset gains elsewhere, than rebalance away from it.
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zone key
Posted: 12 February 2025 21:04:20(UTC)

Joined: 07/03/2024(UTC)
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paul armstrong;334150 wrote:
Why not just hold sovereign bonds, IL bonds, cash and gold as defensive elements and cut out the middleman. Gilts can be held directly and could set up a ladder if so motivated.


Try constructing a portfolio like that and back-testing it against PNL. I did...and I couldn't match the performance of PNL. They seem to be adding quite some value in the way the portfolio is constructed, rebalanced and in tactical sell/buys.
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Micawber
Posted: 14 February 2025 11:24:48(UTC)

Joined: 27/01/2013(UTC)
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PNL performed disappointingly during the spike in uncertainties and inflation two-three years back. Fortunately we had reduced (but not eliminated) our holdings in favour of ITPS and SGLN ETFs, which have together performed much better than PNL, mainly thanks to gold of course. But then, with ETFs in the separate sectors, an investor can shift the emphasis. It was after a decade of inferior perfomance, as I recall, that PNL added some large companies to its pf, making it Harry Browne-ish.

Back testing a strategy over a long term is all very well, but I am more interested in adapting strategy to circumstances as they unrol forwards...and one of the few advantages a retail investor has is agility/flexibility.

Edit: holdings above are in ISA so the valid point Sara makes about using PNL so as not to worry about tax on individual gains is in a different context.
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zone key
Posted: 14 February 2025 13:29:41(UTC)

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Micawber;334356 wrote:
PNL performed disappointingly during the spike in uncertainties and inflation two-three years back.


It depends on what your view of what PNL actually is. To me, it's a 30:70, that fits in the traditional "Cautious Managed" sector. Compare it with other 30:70's and it comes out very well. I don't know what else you'd fairly compare it with to come to a view that it performed disappointingly. Also, i don't see any evidence that PNL has ever used the term "wealth preservation" itself. That seems to have originated from the press.
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tudor a davies
Posted: 14 February 2025 17:49:52(UTC)

Joined: 19/02/2019(UTC)
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zone key;334376 wrote:
Micawber;334356 wrote:
PNL performed disappointingly during the spike in uncertainties and inflation two-three years back.


It depends on what your view of what PNL actually is. To me, it's a 30:70, that fits in the traditional "Cautious Managed" sector. Compare it with other 30:70's and it comes out very well. I don't know what else you'd fairly compare it with to come to a view that it performed disappointingly. Also, i don't see any evidence that PNL has ever used the term "wealth preservation" itself. That seems to have originated from the press.


Quite the opposite:

“ investment policy is to protect and increase (in that order) the value of shareholders’ funds per share”

It is explicitly wealth preservation.
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Mr Bean on 14/02/2025(UTC)
zone key
Posted: 14 February 2025 18:31:52(UTC)

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tudor a davies;334427 wrote:


Quite the opposite:

“ investment policy is to protect and increase (in that order) the value of shareholders’ funds per share”

It is explicitly wealth preservation.


You are selectively quoting. They say "The Trust’s policy is to protect and increase (in that
order) the value of shareholders’ funds per share over the long term."

...and that they have done. The benchmark is effectively RPI/CPI and they have performed very well against that benchmark over the long term. And "wealth preservation" is not how they label themselves.
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Guest on 14/02/2025(UTC)
ben ski
Posted: 14 February 2025 19:13:14(UTC)

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Micawber;334356 wrote:
PNL performed disappointingly during the spike in uncertainties and inflation two-three years back. Fortunately we had reduced (but not eliminated) our holdings in favour of ITPS and SGLN ETFs, which have together performed much better than PNL, mainly thanks to gold of course. But then, with ETFs in the separate sectors, an investor can shift the emphasis. It was after a decade of inferior perfomance, as I recall, that PNL added some large companies to its pf, making it Harry Browne-ish.

Back testing a strategy over a long term is all very well, but I am more interested in adapting strategy to circumstances as they unrol forwards...and one of the few advantages a retail investor has is agility/flexibility.

Edit: holdings above are in ISA so the valid point Sara makes about using PNL so as not to worry about tax on individual gains is in a different context.


I think people get this wrong.

Portfolios like PNL and CGT take more challenging paths through normal market conditions – ideally keeping up with passive equivalents. Then, once every 7-10 years, there's a big repricing they largely avoid. And 2022 was one of those.

The only difference this time was it was the bond market that needed to reprice. And take the very high quality passive equivalent – LifeStrategy 40 – and it took that repricing much more full on. Peak to trough, it had lost value over 4 years. During an opportunity to buy stocks at better prices, it was selling stocks to bonds. This is bad at the time, but misses an opportunity for better future returns too.

Bonds didn't actually lose you any wealth (they were always fixed-term investments), they just got cheaper. The only way for PNL to reliably avoid any repricing would've been to avoid duration – so effectively cash. And we don't really want these portfolios to be more than a third cash, because cash is always a loser over meaningful timeframes, and that would've been us waiting for the 'bad thing' to happen. The real achievement of PNL/CGT was avoiding these risks for years, without underperforming funds that were fully participating in them (e.g. the LifeStrategy range).

So they got this right. I don't think it could've been done any better (without an element of gambling/timing). And for that same reason, even if the event never happened, they'd have likely just kept plodding on in line with VLS40, which means this strategy is a free lunch.

3 users thanked ben ski for this post.
zone key on 14/02/2025(UTC), Guest on 14/02/2025(UTC), bill xxxx on 16/02/2025(UTC)
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