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Increased taxation for the older generation?
DIY Investing
Posted: 01 September 2023 21:32:55(UTC)

Joined: 29/09/2018(UTC)
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Taltunes;278076 wrote:
DIY Investing;278073 wrote:
Well this is it, it's about choices. Don't get me wrong, I've made some bad ones! Non of us are saints, but if you manage to keep it together enough to be self sufficient and provide for your own future and not be a burden on anyone, you shouldn't be punished for it.

If more people took at least a reasonable level of responsibility for themselves, we wouldn't need to worry about increasing the tax take.

A level of taxation is necessary to maintain defense and law and order, but anything more than that is simply to support those that won't support themselves.



Or can’t support themselves


A miniscule minority.

The problem is, we as a society have encouraged victimhood. It's almost aspirational these days. And that's why we have the mental health crap, the gender bullshit....we hold no one accountable for anything now. We celebrate weakness and so we have to pay for it by stealing from everyone else.
7 users thanked DIY Investing for this post.
Jonathan Friend on 01/09/2023(UTC), Arnoldy on 02/09/2023(UTC), Dexi on 02/09/2023(UTC), Jay P on 02/09/2023(UTC), Keith Cobby on 02/09/2023(UTC), SSJ on 02/09/2023(UTC), low income investor on 02/09/2023(UTC)
Taltunes
Posted: 01 September 2023 22:33:15(UTC)

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DIY Investing;278078 wrote:
Taltunes;278076 wrote:
DIY Investing;278073 wrote:
Well this is it, it's about choices. Don't get me wrong, I've made some bad ones! Non of us are saints, but if you manage to keep it together enough to be self sufficient and provide for your own future and not be a burden on anyone, you shouldn't be punished for it.

If more people took at least a reasonable level of responsibility for themselves, we wouldn't need to worry about increasing the tax take.

A level of taxation is necessary to maintain defense and law and order, but anything more than that is simply to support those that won't support themselves.



Or can’t support themselves


A miniscule minority.

The problem is, we as a society have encouraged victimhood. It's almost aspirational these days. And that's why we have the mental health crap, the gender bullshit....we hold no one accountable for anything now. We celebrate weakness and so we have to pay for it by stealing from everyone else.


You’ve obviously never had any serious mental health problems.
2 users thanked Taltunes for this post.
Tim D on 01/09/2023(UTC), bearcub on 03/09/2023(UTC)
Newbie
Posted: 02 September 2023 00:02:19(UTC)

Joined: 31/01/2012(UTC)
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Robert D;278052 wrote:
Newbie;278049 wrote:
[quote=Robert D;278048]
Though what you write is plausible and makes sense.
There is a part of me that cannot shake the feeling that people who actually followed the rules in good spirit and supported the aspirations of our political masters (both red and blue) are being punished for being doing what was asked of them and in supporting the cause.
It may have been easier to swallow the pill if it was one government party against another, but in this case it is both if not all three who pushed this agenda and abiding people cannot surely be punished for it.



There are now more than 4,000 Isa millionaires, with some having as much as £8m.

They weren't meant to be a tax haven for the super rich and need reform

And there are a million ISA holders who are not millionaires and within them I am pretty confident, there are more than 4,000 who invested the same capital amount in a manner same as the 4,000 but invested differently and their pot is not a million let alone 8. Such is life.

So they did everything the same apart from investing in the same stocks / funds / trades / costs etc. So should they also be bumped up to a million as life has not be fair to them ?

Or perhaps they can all get rid of it all and sing kumbaya.

If two kids from the same household (say twins) go to the same school, are in the same class but chose different routes, ending with differing grades and qualifications during which one choses to spend the next 25 years burying themselves in activities to prepare and build a better life whilst the other decides to live for the moment and experience life only taking on jobs to fund the weekend ahead.

Then later in life the playboy is all worn out single, and without a pot to piss in and angry that their sibling who has a significant asset base, high profile job with a 7 figure bonus each year, useful connections etc is unwilling to hand out the small amount (simply because they have it and the other has not) to help out and fund the upcoming weekends plans or share of their wealth as it is the humane thing to do and will make society more equal. Should the one who has the means feed the irrational portrayed as moral view of the individual who simply is unwilling to accept the reality that life is not fair and we need to strive to get ahead.

As someone once put it, you can only give out if you have any and to have any you need to take measures to acquire and built it.
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eain
Posted: 02 September 2023 08:16:04(UTC)

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i thought the raise to £20 K was rather a big step, but have to admit have used it to park my lump sum

don't think you can start putting a cap on isas retrospectively

my wife and I now have a tax free extra income in retirement of over £20K from a £500K portfolio to supplement our teachers pensions, nice but we saved hard to do that!

we have been investing since before the dot com crisis
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Jay P on 02/09/2023(UTC), Jonathan Friend on 02/09/2023(UTC)
Dexi
Posted: 02 September 2023 10:01:18(UTC)

Joined: 03/04/2018(UTC)
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IHT is payable on ISAs , so those wealthy pensioners will be doing their bit for the UK , helping with essential expenditure such as the House of Lords and keeping migrants in luxury seaside B+B s .
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Guest on 02/09/2023(UTC), Jonathan Friend on 02/09/2023(UTC), Newbie on 02/09/2023(UTC), Arnoldy on 02/09/2023(UTC), Laura Sommer on 03/09/2023(UTC)
SSJ
Posted: 02 September 2023 14:04:18(UTC)

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Robert D;278031 wrote:
Taltunes;278030 wrote:
Robert D;278028 wrote:
The number of “Isa millionaires” has surged to more than 4,000, according to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) figures and almost doubled since 2020.

The average holding of the top 60 is now £8.5m!!!

The average age of an ISA millionaire is 74, while the youngest is 39.

Is that what Isas are for - to make those who are already comfortably off even wealthier?


Yes



Isas as they stand are an inequitable tax relief. No “normal” person can possibly save £20k per annum. If anyone thinks this in anyway normal they don’t live in the real world. So these ISA millionaires are not people who need savings subsidies.

Could a "normal person" have saved £7k per annum in 1999 when Gordon Brown brought in ISAs?
Presumably not in your eyes as that £7k is £16k in today's money (using RPI).

The biggest percentage hike in the ISA allowance (42% in 2010) was Labour's way to compensate savers after Gordon Brown saved the world with low interest rates.

We owe a lot to GB, the friend of the comfortably off.
2 users thanked SSJ for this post.
Jay P on 02/09/2023(UTC), Guest on 02/09/2023(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 02 September 2023 14:51:58(UTC)

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8,883

eain;278096 wrote:
don't think you can start putting a cap on isas retrospectively


Why not? That's basically what the Lifetime Allowance on pensions was. (As for pensions, presumably there'd need to be some "fixed protection" provisions to placate the worst affected.)

The thing about ISAs is, they can only hold liquid assets. So they are very easy to value, and so they'd be a very easy target for a wealth tax. Suppose total ISA holdings above some threshold (possibly as low as £0, to save HMRC having to track an individual's multiple ISAs) were hit with an X%pa annual charge, for the privilege of being free of the tax complications of unsheltered assets. How big would X have to be before folks threw in the towel on ISAs and just held stuff (or at least, stuff above the threshold) unsheltered? 0.1%? 0.25%? 0.5%? 1%? (~0.5%pa would be an interesting number... because I imagine it'd be the final push for a lot of folks to dump their 0.7%OCF actively managed funds for 0.2%OCF passives)

In the past, the nation's total ISA assets were trifling compared with pensions, and pensions were the obvious target for sticky fingered chancellors. But googling around suggests ISA assets are now up to 0.75trillion compared with 2-3trillion for DB&DC pension assets, so... ripe for picking?
Keith Cobby
Posted: 02 September 2023 15:12:27(UTC)

Joined: 07/03/2012(UTC)
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There won't be a retrospective wealth tax on ISAs, they are the one unequivocally successful personal finance initiative supported by successive governments of all colours. Pensions are different because they attract tax relief whereas ISAs are paid for principally from taxed income. ISAs fall under the IHT umbrella (a wealth tax by another name). I can imagine the headlines in the DM if a future government came for your 'nest egg'.
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Special Kloud on 02/09/2023(UTC), Jonathan Friend on 02/09/2023(UTC), Tim D on 02/09/2023(UTC), Laura Sommer on 03/09/2023(UTC), Harland Kearney on 03/09/2023(UTC)
Taltunes
Posted: 02 September 2023 16:11:54(UTC)

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Keith Cobby;278127 wrote:
There won't be a retrospective wealth tax on ISAs, they are the one unequivocally successful personal finance initiative supported by successive governments of all colours. Pensions are different because they attract tax relief whereas ISAs are paid for principally from taxed income. ISAs fall under the IHT umbrella (a wealth tax by another name). I can imagine the headlines in the DM if a future government came for your 'nest egg'.


You are probably right but they could introduce a cap on how much you can have in an ISA in future. People who already had more than this amount would be able to keep the money in an ISA but it would reduce the scope of ISAs for people who currently have less than the cap in their ISA. There are also probably a few in-between possibilities.

Unlike the previous unrealistic suggestion of £200,000 I would have thought a more realistic cap would be a similar amount to the previous lifetime pensions allowance of c£1m although even this was probably too low so maybe c£1.5m to c£2.5m? £5m tops.

As I have said though rather than tax people and then offer a way to mitigate the tax personally I think the government should tax people less in the first place.
4 users thanked Taltunes for this post.
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Tug Boat
Posted: 02 September 2023 17:10:29(UTC)

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I am so anti tax on people who earn money. They not only pay tax, but have to pay another tax called NI.

Let’s discourage people from working and take loads of their money away.

The government is shite at spending our money. Have to say, most of the governments in my lifetime have not been good at this.

Tax should be tax+NI retirees should be taxed at this rate.

Get income tax down to a much lower level.

Best regards,

Chancellor Tug
4 users thanked Tug Boat for this post.
Taltunes on 02/09/2023(UTC), Arnoldy on 02/09/2023(UTC), Jay P on 02/09/2023(UTC), Guest on 03/09/2023(UTC)
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