Funds Insider - Opening the door to funds

Welcome to the Citywire Funds Insider Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Personal Assets Trust
Aminatidi
Posted: 31 October 2020 11:48:28(UTC)
#97

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Thanks: 7151 times
Was thanked: 11412 time(s) in 3831 post(s)
mdss68;135402 wrote:
bédé;135397 wrote:
I sold some CGAR at ca 1600h on 26th, believing the pricing time was 1700h. The contract note not received until pm 29th, dated 28th 1700h. (AJBell)

A good enough reason, psychologically, to be 98% ITs.

CGAR is my only OEIC, used for mopping up divvies and, ..... wait for it ...wait for it ... as a cash proxy.


CG AR is domiciled in Ireland, takes a little longer to complete than a UK domiciled Fund would (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions).

On the buying in side this also takes 2 days via HL, and (to my mild annoyance) I've yet to actually get my latest buy at precisely the day's price, I assume there's a currency conversion getting thrown in for good measure (if anyone knows a better explanation I'm all ears?).


@Aminatidi ....CG AR as KL says is the scalable version, more designed to appeal to the Institution that wants to park £500m than me wanting to park my monthly divi's etc. Think back to Woodford, what finally killed him was Kent County Council wanting 250m back in one fell swoop. While KCC were quite right to assume they could simply sell their units, it was the underlying liquidity of Woodford's fund itself that became the issue. CG AR aim to avoid any such nonsense by holding more in the way of liquid (hopefully) ETF's and less in illiquid (definitely maybe) IT's and so on. If a large holder wants their money back, Mr Spiller will be able to sell assets easily into the market to meet said redemption, contra Neil Woodford, who simply collapsed because there wasn't a cat in hell's chance the open market was going to snap up what he was selling! Spiller needs to avoid at least some of the sort of less liquid assets that make up a rump of CGT, where the different structure allows him not to need to sell the assets themselves to meet redemptions, we just sell our CGT shares if we want our cash.

It was Fundsmith V Woodford that really brought the point home, Terry reckoned he could liquidate Fundsmith in a matter of hours if needed. Woodford on the other hand I seem to remember was measured not in hours, but in years, literally. If you're an Institutional Investor, this difference really matters, the flip side imho being that in return, the Institutions will be "stickier" investors, less prone to panic selling.

I do recall reading that CG AR actually had money inflows during the worst of this year, and as they've now passed an apparently important milestone of 3 yrs existence, the theory should now be that CG AR will grow more in size as many wouldn't take positions until a proven track record was established.




Fantastic post (as are many others).

@Tim I think if you look at the PNL quarterlies from back in Ian Rushbrook's time it was a very different animal to what it was/is under Sebastian Lyon/Troy.

ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 APRIL 2009

Gives some insight.

I do wonder whether to consider an account somewhere alongside/other than HL with lower dealing fees as it's funny how that £12 makes you think twice about whether to drop a grand in or wait until you have £2-3K spare to "make it worthwhile".
4 users thanked Aminatidi for this post.
mdss68 on 31/10/2020(UTC), Tim D on 31/10/2020(UTC), bédé on 31/10/2020(UTC), Fig Lee on 01/11/2020(UTC)
bédé
Posted: 31 October 2020 12:10:34(UTC)
#98

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 7,895

......called away
King Lodos
Posted: 31 October 2020 12:12:55(UTC)
#60

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 11,046

Thanks: 6166 times
Was thanked: 30411 time(s) in 8333 post(s)
Tim D;135407 wrote:
- "IT Flexible Investment" (which CGT and PNL are in) as a whole has been pretty terrible... so possibly focussing on CGT is just cherry picking the trust in that sector which has gotten most lucky... like picking SMT out of IT Global (which would smash everything else flat if I added it to the chart). Don't know enough about the other peculiar odd-bod trusts in that "flexible" sector to know whether they're really in any way comparable to CGT/PNL though.


I've always put CGT, Troy/PNL, Ruffer in their own category .. If there were more funds doing the same, you could have an "IT All Weather" category.

Newton Real Return feels similar to PNL's portfolio, and has a good loog-term record .. But without the long-term bet on TIPS, it feels like a different philosophy – less All Weather, more multi-asset (and it's £6bn – IFAs favourite).

I'm slightly pessimistic on All Weather going forwards .. But I think you can put CGT's success down to them doing things that are fairly likely to work over long time-scales .. So all three maintain this market neutral asset allocation (which we know works with HB –> it's unpredictable events that tend to be the problem); CGT particularly factors in value between asset classes, and consistently buying ITs below their NAV (two forms of value investing in which I think you do still get clear price disparities); it makes full use of the free lunch of diversification; and they all have a long-term macro outlook (short-termism being a major problem for retail funds .. I think they perhaps have the luxury of older, more experienced investors not expecting everything to perform like SMT)


4 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
Tim D on 31/10/2020(UTC), Lindisfarne on 31/10/2020(UTC), R Woo on 31/10/2020(UTC), Martina on 31/10/2020(UTC)
SF100
Posted: 31 October 2020 12:26:41(UTC)
#89

Joined: 08/02/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2,254

Laurence O'Brien;135369 wrote:

I'm curious about the fall in treasuries. Anyone have any theories?

If you means Inflation Protected, possibly due to the recent 10
-15% slump in oil price.....
bédé
Posted: 31 October 2020 12:34:57(UTC)
#85

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 7,895

Tim D;135409 wrote:
My homegrown portfolio-processing software used to categorize some holdings as "Aggressive"... I replaced it with "Bold". Partly because it just seemed to fit the intent of the holdings better. Partly because it literally fit into the limited space in the output columns better.


By such small steps are battles lost and won.
andyH
Posted: 31 October 2020 13:03:50(UTC)
#99

Joined: 19/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2

CGAR - what's that?
Laurence O'Brien
Posted: 31 October 2020 13:16:28(UTC)
#96

Joined: 04/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 943

[/quote] Think back to Woodford, what finally killed him was Kent County Council wanting 250m back in one fell swoop. While KCC were quite right to assume they could simply sell their units, it was the underlying liquidity of Woodford's fund itself that became the issue[/quote]

This is the same Kent Council that had £50m in Icelandic banks and it took them nine years to get it back.

I don’t think that Kent Council were right to assume that they could simply sell their units. Woodford's liquidity problems already were the issue and if anyone had given it a moment’s thought, it should have been obvious that Woodford wasn’t going to be able to get hold of that sort of dosh at short notice.

Fortunately for me, I'd read the tea leaves and got out near the top and it beats me that people who should be savvier than me failed to do so. At least they should have been thinking about managing the situation to try to avoid collapsing the whole thing like Jupiter did when they pulled out over £1bn over a period.
JayW
Posted: 31 October 2020 14:46:53(UTC)

Joined: 25/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 358

Thanks: 59 times
Was thanked: 838 time(s) in 264 post(s)
March was a flash crash, one month compared to the ~two years of decline seen after dotcom and the financial crisis. I'm not sure the brief drops in funds such as CGT are meaningful when judging how they would perform in a prolonged stock market downturn.
3 users thanked JayW for this post.
Apostate on 31/10/2020(UTC), J-san on 31/10/2020(UTC), King Lodos on 31/10/2020(UTC)
Hyndford
Posted: 31 October 2020 15:36:35(UTC)
#69

Joined: 02/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 98

Thanks: 130 times
Was thanked: 181 time(s) in 66 post(s)
Tim D;135407 wrote:
Don't know enough about the other peculiar odd-bod trusts in that "flexible" sector to know whether they're really in any way comparable to CGT/PNL though.


I found this article that gives quite a nice summary of the different groupings in the Flexible sector...

https://www.itinvestor.c...19/11/flexible-friends/


4 users thanked Hyndford for this post.
Tim D on 31/10/2020(UTC), The Thin White Duke on 31/10/2020(UTC), Jeff Liddiard on 31/10/2020(UTC), William R B on 01/11/2020(UTC)
Aminatidi
Posted: 01 November 2020 10:02:25(UTC)
#61

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 5,865

Thanks: 7151 times
Was thanked: 11412 time(s) in 3831 post(s)
King Lodos;135418 wrote:
I'm slightly pessimistic on All Weather going forwards .. But I think you can put CGT's success down to them doing things that are fairly likely to work over long time-scales .. So all three maintain this market neutral asset allocation (which we know works with HB –> it's unpredictable events that tend to be the problem); CGT particularly factors in value between asset classes, and consistently buying ITs below their NAV (two forms of value investing in which I think you do still get clear price disparities); it makes full use of the free lunch of diversification; and they all have a long-term macro outlook (short-termism being a major problem for retail funds .. I think they perhaps have the luxury of older, more experienced investors not expecting everything to perform like SMT)




This is something I spend a fair bit of time thinking about.

I've been doing this for almost 3 years.

It would be so easy to look at the recent history and assume that things simply keep going up.

I often find myself reading the annual reports of the the likes of Personal Asset or Capital Gearing simply because they seem to be run by people who have been there and got the tee-shirt so to speak.

Keeps me grounded and stops me trying to think I'm too smart.
5 users thanked Aminatidi for this post.
Jeff Liddiard on 01/11/2020(UTC), Tim D on 01/11/2020(UTC), Lindisfarne on 01/11/2020(UTC), Paul durland on 01/11/2020(UTC), King Lodos on 01/11/2020(UTC)
40 Pages«Previous page7891011Next page»
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets