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Personal Assets Trust
bédé
Posted: 17 February 2021 10:40:56(UTC)

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
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Bulldog Drummond;153115 wrote:
If I were 10 years older I doubt I would care very much but if I still had my marbles I would still be risk on.


I am ten years older, perhaps more. Risk? . .. Bring it on!

I will, of course, be a bit more cautious crossing the road.
1 user thanked bédé for this post.
Easyrider on 17/02/2021(UTC)
Tim D
Posted: 17 February 2021 10:55:23(UTC)

Joined: 07/06/2017(UTC)
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bédé;153188 wrote:
Bulldog Drummond;153115 wrote:
If I were 10 years older I doubt I would care very much but if I still had my marbles I would still be risk on.


I am ten years older, perhaps more. Risk? . .. Bring it on!

I will, of course, be a bit more cautious crossing the road.


Not everyone has a gold plated DB pension to live off, bédé. For those of us who don't, it becomes necessary to think more like pension trustees. And that means a degree of caution and consideration of "what's the worst could happen?" is warranted.

Much of my own understanding of risk comes from participation in various "adrenalin sports" in my youth. I've always liked Whymper's closing words from "Scrambles Amongst the Alps":
Quote:
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Substitute "invest" for "climb" and he's nailed it.
21 users thanked Tim D for this post.
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Joe Average
Posted: 17 February 2021 11:10:34(UTC)

Joined: 01/11/2019(UTC)
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Tyrion Lannister;153143 wrote:
Bulldog Drummond;153141 wrote:
Easyrider;153139 wrote:
I still can't see the attraction of PNL over LifeStrategy 40/60 or 60/40. Both have performed better over 5 years as far as I can identify and both are much cheaper.
LS 40/60 (40% stocks, 60% bonds) seems more diversified that PNL except for gold, but I may be mistaken.


Agreed. I find the forum fascination with CGT & PNL baffling.


I hold them both but am beginning to wonder why I bother. Both fell like equities in Feb/March last rear, only marginally less than Fundsmith. I’m just starting out as a retiree, and my obvious interest is wealth preservation, but CGT/PNL aren’t making me warm and cosy! I’m starting to think I’d be better be splitting them between cash and equities.



I had both, plus Ruffer, due to their performance during the big hits including 2008, Ruffer was a clear winner in March over the other 2 - since recovered.

As capital preservation funds go, I am a big fan of Ruffer and like their active style in protecting the downside and the way they see the future. Markets are becoming increasingly volatile and I am more than comfortable having them navigate a path through for me.
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Easyrider on 17/02/2021(UTC), bédé on 17/02/2021(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 17/02/2021(UTC), Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC)
0x3F
Posted: 17 February 2021 11:11:25(UTC)

Joined: 26/12/2016(UTC)
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Tyrion Lannister;153143 wrote:
I hold them both but am beginning to wonder why I bother. Both fell like equities in Feb/March last rear..


100% disagree. Looking at my (monthly) unitised spreadsheet, my recorded values show 5% dip for my CGT/PNL basket and a 25% dip for FTSEAS TR. Currently, CGT/PNL are sitting around all time highs, and FTSEAS still well off the highs. As I see it, they've outperformed and with less volatility.

If look intra-month, CGT/PNL falls look like ~10%, still much less than FTSEAS. Not sure about LS comparisons wrt recent performance, but I much prefer active management and not at all keen on bond exposure (though suppose depends on duration).

-0x3F



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Jesse M on 17/02/2021(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 17/02/2021(UTC), Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC)
Hyndford
Posted: 17 February 2021 11:17:12(UTC)

Joined: 02/06/2019(UTC)
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This is a great discussion and one that is very relevant to me as I'm currently skimming off some 'excess' profits from SMT and buying PNL.

I very much like the climbing analogy and also see the investment journey as like walking over a hill to the land of wealth.

At the beginning you can be in 100% equities and look to make quick progress on your journey, but as you climb higher you really don't want to slip, fall back and have to start climbing again with all the extra effort that requires.

I fully accept that this puts the brakes on growth and chimes with Tim's billionaire comment as it will make it more difficult to get to the top of the hill. The key for me is trying to find the right balance so that you still have some forward momentum but with some emergency brakes.

Of course once you get to the top of the hill you can start to increase your equity exposure again and freewheel all the way to the bottom.
7 users thanked Hyndford for this post.
Guest on 17/02/2021(UTC), Robin on 17/02/2021(UTC), Steve U on 17/02/2021(UTC), Jesse M on 17/02/2021(UTC), Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC), Rob B on 17/02/2021(UTC), ALAN P on 29/01/2022(UTC)
Easyrider
Posted: 17 February 2021 11:45:16(UTC)

Joined: 09/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,951

Tim D;153197 wrote:
bédé;153188 wrote:
Bulldog Drummond;153115 wrote:
If I were 10 years older I doubt I would care very much but if I still had my marbles I would still be risk on.


I am ten years older, perhaps more. Risk? . .. Bring it on!

I will, of course, be a bit more cautious crossing the road.


Not everyone has a gold plated DB pension to live off, bédé. For those of us who don't, it becomes necessary to think more like pension trustees. And that means a degree of caution and consideration of "what's the worst could happen?" is warranted.

Much of my own understanding of risk comes from participation in various "adrenalin sports" in my youth. I've always liked Whymper's closing words from "Scrambles Amongst the Alps":
Quote:
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Substitute "invest" for "climb" and he's nailed it.


On the other hand many old soldiers will tell you that the way to survive in battle is to go for it and throw caution to the winds.
"He who dares wins."
Aminatidi
Posted: 17 February 2021 11:51:06(UTC)

Joined: 29/01/2018(UTC)
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Tim D;153197 wrote:
bédé;153188 wrote:
Bulldog Drummond;153115 wrote:
If I were 10 years older I doubt I would care very much but if I still had my marbles I would still be risk on.


I am ten years older, perhaps more. Risk? . .. Bring it on!

I will, of course, be a bit more cautious crossing the road.


Not everyone has a gold plated DB pension to live off, bédé. For those of us who don't, it becomes necessary to think more like pension trustees. And that means a degree of caution and consideration of "what's the worst could happen?" is warranted.

Much of my own understanding of risk comes from participation in various "adrenalin sports" in my youth. I've always liked Whymper's closing words from "Scrambles Amongst the Alps":
Quote:
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Substitute "invest" for "climb" and he's nailed it.


Indeed.

If someone would like to sponsor me with a guaranteed £40K inflation linked income from aged 65 for as long as I live I promise you my attitude to the volatility of my hard won life savings will change.
3 users thanked Aminatidi for this post.
Easyrider on 17/02/2021(UTC), Robin on 17/02/2021(UTC), Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC)
Easyrider
Posted: 17 February 2021 12:06:35(UTC)

Joined: 09/11/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1,951

Tim D;153197 wrote:
bédé;153188 wrote:
Bulldog Drummond;153115 wrote:
If I were 10 years older I doubt I would care very much but if I still had my marbles I would still be risk on.


I am ten years older, perhaps more. Risk? . .. Bring it on!

I will, of course, be a bit more cautious crossing the road.


Not everyone has a gold plated DB pension to live off, bédé. For those of us who don't, it becomes necessary to think more like pension trustees. And that means a degree of caution and consideration of "what's the worst could happen?" is warranted.

Much of my own understanding of risk comes from participation in various "adrenalin sports" in my youth. I've always liked Whymper's closing words from "Scrambles Amongst the Alps":
Quote:
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Substitute "invest" for "climb" and he's nailed it.


Fair point. My wife and I are both fortunate. We have comfortable pensions and investment is a hobby not a necessity. If it were a necessity I suspect I would be even more risk adverse that I am already. if one classes BS accounts, premium bonds, NS&I products and cash, as cash, then we have about 15% in cash.

1 user thanked Easyrider for this post.
Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC)
bédé
Posted: 17 February 2021 12:23:41(UTC)

Joined: 26/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 7,895

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Tim D;153197 wrote:
Much of my own understanding of risk comes from participation in various "adrenalin sports" in my youth. I've always liked Whymper's closing words from "Scrambles Amongst the Alps":
Quote:
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.
Substitute "invest" for "climb" and he's nailed it.
Tim, as you know I am not trying to convert those already with a faith. But I definitely challenge those with no faith. Or blind faith.

Judging from the "thanks" you have majority support. I always recommend your route to others, but it's not for me.

And you know we both like a good analogy. wrt rock climbing, I was watching an old video about Hellvelyn; a guide was leading a journalist along Striding Edge. "Keep three points of contact' was the advice. As a young lad I was taken down into the engine room on a big steamer; same advice for going down the ladder.
Now that must be relevant to investing.

Socrates said: "Know thyself."

Stephen Hawking said: "Do what you can, but do it well."
2 users thanked bédé for this post.
Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC), Aminatidi on 17/02/2021(UTC)
Logic Prophets
Posted: 17 February 2021 12:40:42(UTC)

Joined: 23/07/2018(UTC)
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Recent IC article....


How do they compare?

These trusts take different approaches to wealth preservation. The two most similar in terms of performance have been Personal Assets and Capital Gearing. Personal Assets, the larger of the two, had 42 per cent in equities, 35 per cent in index-linked bonds, 12 per cent in gold-related assets, and the remainder of its assets in cash and UK treasury bills at the end of December. It differs from the other wealth preservation trusts as its equity portfolio is mainly invested in direct shareholdings. Lyon looks for companies that are resilient, and generate predictable and recurring revenues from a variety of essential activities. A fifth of its equity allocation is in the UK, and most of the rest is in the US. Microsoft (US:MSFT), Unilever (ULVR) and Alphabet (US:GOOGL) made up 13.3 per cent of the trust's assets at the end of December.

Capital Gearing Trust had 19 per cent of its assets in equities at the end of January, a large proportion of which were held via exchange traded funds (ETFs). It has 21 per cent of its assets in real estate investment trusts (Reits) and other property assets, 30 per cent in index-linked government bonds, 10 per cent in preference shares and corporate debt, 8 per cent in cash, and 5 per cent in conventional government bonds and gold. Peter Spiller has managed the trust since 1982, making him one of the city’s longest serving fund managers, and he and his team are much respected for consistently meeting their objectives over the long term.

Ruffer Investment Company, which was launched to allow private investors who weren’t clients of the wealth manager which runs it to get access to its process, has been the laggard in terms of performance. This may be because the trust has the highest UK weighting of the four, with 17 per cent invested in UK equities and 22 per cent in overseas equities. The trust has 30 per cent of its assets in index-linked bonds – almost a third of which are long-dated – and 8 per cent in gold and gold equities.

RIT Capital Partners, meanwhile, is a different beast from the others, and has had better returns over the long term albeit with higher volatility. The trust has a degree of hedging, with 40 per cent of its assets in listed equities, 11 per cent in listed hedge funds and 25 per cent in private equity at the end of November. Absolute return and credit made up most of the rest, with North America accounting for 39 per cent of the trust’s geographical exposure and the UK only 7 per cent.

Lord Rothschild stepped down as chairman and director in 2019, having first been appointed chairman of the Rothschild Investment Trust, RIT’s predecessor, in 1971. Priyesh Parmar, associate director at brokerage Numis Securities says: "We believe the transition was well managed and that the new team is well placed to continue to manage RIT using the same capital preservation approach, utilising their deep relationships with selected investment managers and financial institutions.”


Imo there are a few on this forum that don’t really take into account other people’s circumstances, age, other investments etc etc which makes them come across a bit ignorant. There is too much ‘short term’ noise coming from a few individuals that have done well since March and they think they have cracked it.
Let’s see what their approach is like after another 20-30 years of investing.
12 users thanked Logic Prophets for this post.
Guest on 17/02/2021(UTC), Trudy Scrumptious on 17/02/2021(UTC), Monty Claret on 17/02/2021(UTC), J Ross on 17/02/2021(UTC), Chans on 17/02/2021(UTC), Mel Shapiro on 17/02/2021(UTC), Easyrider on 17/02/2021(UTC), Dexi on 17/02/2021(UTC), Tim D on 17/02/2021(UTC), Aminatidi on 17/02/2021(UTC), Laurence O'Brien on 17/02/2021(UTC), Jesse M on 25/02/2022(UTC)
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